Jack, Will and Stephen know what it’s like to chase feedback, dealing with offers and rejection – a lot of people are wondering how they do it. Hear the trio talk about their top tips on what to do after an interview
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Transcription (Raw Text)
Stephen Drew 0:00
Will Ridgway 0:01
right, we’re like everyone,
Jack Moran 0:03
everyone. hope everyone’s doing well. Right now today, we’ve got quite an interesting topic to discuss some way. So if we do a quick, just rerun of what we’ve been doing in these sessions, we’ve laid out how to do the perfect portfolio, the perfect CV, how to smash the interview, we went through that in quite a bit of detail. And today, we’re going to talk about really interesting topics. So this is going to be the period following the interviews. So if you’ve got your, you know, CBS outs or 100 practices in London, you’ve had interviews with, let’s say, 12 of them, and you’ve gone all the way through the interviews. Next, we’re going to be talking about that weld after you know, the feedback, right through to the offers, and if there’s any rejection, how to handle that. So yeah, I thought we just dive straight in. Also, Steven, well, I think, you know, the first let’s say, you know, we’re, I’m in a situation where I’ve just had to, say, five interviews. I mean, they’re sort of post interview world, I’ve been revised in I said, I got 100 practices, I sent CVS out all those practices, and I got multiple interviews because of it. Now, I’m in a situation where I’m sort of you know, you’re up late at night thinking about if you’ve done well or not, you’re you know, you’re always going to be a bit anxious, aren’t you? So in terms of the feedback, I think that’s the first bit we want to kick off with. You know, we always tell people about calling people back up for feedback. So I want to dive in. So Steven, how long do you think they should be leaving it? You’ve done your interviews? What sort of feedback timeframe?
Stephen Drew 1:30
Good question. So hopefully, one of the things again, at the end of the interview, if you can, and if you forget, it’s not the end of the world, we want to kind of get into something like, when can I hear back from you, right? So make the mental note in your head off that time frame. So if you’re the interviewers, on Monday, they might say they want to get back to you, at the end of the week, they might say they want to get back to the end of the week, make a note where that time frame. And after the interview, what I would do is I would typically follow up a few days after. So let’s imagine it’s a five days gap from the interview to the deadline that they said, okay, you will you maybe want to say a thank you note, not straight after the interview, because you could do that. But the thank you email, a thank you email can also be used as a tool to reengage. It’s a bit like on Facebook, remember, we have that nudge function where everyone was nudging each other? And if you didn’t have someone back, they’d be like, Well, you know, all this crazy stuff? Well, you need to think about is that the nudge was useless on Facebook. I mean, it had no purpose. What a thank you can do in terms of contact an employer is a little bit like nudge. So imagine they’re probably seeing one or two people after maybe, or you’re the end one. Either way, they’re going to be thinking about who should I hire. And what you want to do is get in the top of their heads. And one way to do that is to go Thea jack, there’s great to see you last Friday, I really enjoyed the company, again, culture. And since then I know we talked about modular residential, I got super excited, I’ve signed up to one or two events. And I’ve been following what the practice is done. I’ve seen you’ve done this on Tuesday done. And I’m super excited to be in line with the practice. And that and that’s the kind of thing you want to do. You want to basically re jog their memory in a way that’s not too pushy, either. And if they set a time frame, you want to be respectful on that timeframe. So if I say I’m going to get back to you on a Friday, and our Tuesday, you’re like, Hey, Steve, Hey, Steve, I’m like, dude, you’re kind of you’re being a little bit full on, because I’m busy right now. So you want to get you want, you want to get the balance. And so work within the timeframes. And use one or two things like that as a technique to reengage.
Will Ridgway 3:54
I would like to sort of add on to that, or maybe cover overlap a little bit. So it’s always you must always find out. When are they going to get back to you ask right after the interview or even during the interview? When am I likely to hear feedback from this interview, because that’s pivotal in making sure that you don’t become annoyed. Because then if you are then caught up on the Friday, when they said they were gonna get back to you, maybe it’s late the day you’ve not heard anything, you can’t give her a ring. Realistically, because, you know, that’s when they said they’d get back to you. They haven’t got back to you. It’s near the end of the day. So it’s worth giving them a call that way. So I always always find that because the thing is as well. They potentially have other people in line or they’ve got an interview. And so you don’t want to call up in between or anything particularly as well. They’re currently interviewing someone because it’s disruptive and it accidentally paints a bad picture of you because they you know, they associate they put negative label on you unconsciously. So it’s important to try and respect their time, the timeframe that they said And then follow up with a call to say, Thank you really love to get feedback because all I’ve been thinking about your company be thinking about the events, social events, maybe bring something back up that you talked about in the interview, that only
Stephen Drew 5:14
a good impression. I can’t remember.
Unknown Speaker 5:17
How did you now you chase me
Stephen Drew 5:21
Jack Moran 5:22
I definitely think, you know, when it comes to that whole feedback situation, you know, not that I can empathise with too much, but I reckon that’s what a lot of people have a quite anxious about, you know, the idea of cooling off for feedback, but then scared, because they will come across as either too eager, or that sort of annoyance thing. So I think it’s quite good that we Yeah. And so, you know,
Unknown Speaker 5:44
Jack Moran 5:45
say, you know, for example, you do have an interview with someone, and you just figured the question doesn’t get asked for whatever reason, and another feedback when they can expect to hear back? What I guess the obvious question would be, how long would you guys give it before you actually actively when, you know, call them up?
Stephen Drew 6:00
This is there’s a few techniques, jack, that mean, you could respond thinking on your feet in this scenario? Because it’s easily done. Right? You’re so in the moment, you’re in the moment, again, we’re having them, I don’t know why we keep bringing it back at them. And then but you’re in the moment you lose yourself. And you’ve got so engrossed in the conversation that you actually forgot to ask. It happens. It really does. It’s a bit like when you go to the party, sometimes you chat to someone and you’re like, I don’t remember the name I did. mascot, I asked them. Or maybe I asked them, I forgotten that it’s gonna be so embarrassing. So these these things happen all the time. There’s ways around that you could even just ring the receptionist. And you can be like, I absolutely love the company, I met with one or two of the directors. I didn’t ask when, when they went, when they would get back to me, you know, if there’s a particular time, or can I asked him? And what I would even do then, is I’ve asked the receptionist, and she might know and if not you you could be put through I mean, the real ballsy way is to do what we talked about, like the thank you email, you can even do it on the phone jack, or you can incorporate in the thank you email. And it would be great to hear your thoughts. Is there a particular time deadline that you plan to get back to the candidates, including myself? Question mark. And this is one of the things that we always talk about jack and well in our jobs in that way. It’s like, if you answer that really important in the emails, and especially on the phone to ask questions. And what we do by nature, is we get conscious because we’ve been gone a bit, maybe a bit rude. And the answer is no, it’s not rude to ask questions, but like, have a date when you go out with me. Okay, yes or no? If you don’t go sheepishly go around the pile and be like, Oh, this is very, very smart. You know, sometimes when people are like, I think he was asking you out. And they were like, really? Was he asking me out? And that’s the same thing. You got to be the board mind, there’s a difference between a very clear question, and being somewhat direct in a friendly way than being pushy. It’s not about so jack, we met last Friday, do you? When do you plan to get back to me? Do you have a decision yet? That’s a bit too forward. If I went a jack, really appreciate Moran architects. I love learning about all the crazy stuff that you’ve been up to and the amazing projects and I just was thinking about all weekend about what it’d be like to be in the office and been following the news? Is there a particular time frame that you plan to get back to me or is a day that I can know around? The line. And within that way of what it is and where you make it clear, we want to ask you a question at the end. Not like it was really good to meet you. So thank you for your time and opportunity. I’ll go now by just like what you just kind of shut down your own phone call. You want to be like we couldn’t be like I hope it was great interview? And is there a particular time that you can get back to me by I like it, you know, is is that it’s that kind of thing? And then that I think makes a big difference.
Jack Moran 9:05
And you have to put yourself out your comfort zone, don’t you? Well, like if no one else likes or call often been I just had an interview for what to ask. But would you know and I can hear hear from I think that’s it’s just kind of getting over that confident? Yeah.
Stephen Drew 9:18
And that is you know what it’s really hard to do at first because it’s the thing of we naturally like to fill space and you know me, I can talk for whales as the thing. And the thing is you got to balance it out with talking with substance. And sometimes you’ve got to let there be silence. And it’s a very scary thing to ask a question and pause for an answer. It’s like now, that feels a bit low. You know, you know, what’s the next point? And it’s like that. It’s like, it’s like they’re the Red Dead standoff or something, isn’t it? It’s like that moment where they Oh, here we go. I’m asking the question and pull off the gun. The thing is, though, you’ve got to and is that in the course. Back to it’s the same thing about asking for salaries and stuff, you got to remember that actually salaries and start and date and asking difficult questions in a professional manner is part of being a professional. There’s a big difference about asking for it in a nice way, and asking for in a bad way, say like, Well, I think I’m worth 32 fights. And so an offer anything less is not that appealing to me. So I’m alright. Nice to see what it is. But as you go, like, what do you think the salary is for the role? And if they say, the salaries for 30,000, you go well, that’s fantastic. I appreciate that. I was actually on 30,000 pound for the last two years. And I do feel like my skill sets offer a lot of value. Appreciate your different bands and brackets in the company. However, what about if I came as a salary, which is an increase in me, so I’m motivated fy 2000. And if I work hard and prove my worth, we can discuss that salary performance in there is something we can do. See the pause? I pause I was there was like the moment you got to do that sometimes. And I just feel like if you don’t do that, and this is the thing of right now it’s going to be so much more comfortable to go for interviews, and to let there be no feedback, there’s going to be so much Well, it’s going to be so easy. And we were talking about it well in terms of our job, sometimes it’s so easy to go, Oh, I don’t want to deal with that conversation. Because it might be awkward, or maybe I could come across as too pushy. So I’m going to leave it and what happens is things change. And so in our job, it might be that an architect then needs to never architecture practice, and then is in a position where they’re their priorities change, which is normal, and that’s fine, then sometimes you go the other way where a person can become too confused. And then they actually still want the company that they met at the start. But they’ve seen so much stuff now that they don’t know what’s going on. And this is same thing with interviewing you can be like well, well, I was definitely gonna hire well. Now I’m not too sure because I met Rachel I met this and I met that and you’ve got to and then if you’re kind of not there in the foreground, and you’re not kind of rooting for yourself in a little bit of a way and you’re not making yourself at the forefront of their mind you get lost because suddenly in their deliberation between jack and Well, I’ve gone on well you know, jacket sort of second interview he was really good and then but but then at the time when I met you well I follow you in the morning and it’s that kind of thing of like but then if will bring me out oh my god you know why he was so nice on the phone. I like to chase it up and or do you know what I’m thinking that will be good. And this is the kind of thing you got to do. The same time though, you can’t push it too far because this is a delicate art form. And it is a bit like the day you want to be a day as in you’ve got to make a good impression. No one likes someone too keen. No one likes anyone too pushy. But you also want to be feel like someone wants to be of a day you don’t want to be with the wet Flan or you know, and they just there that day like oh no, this is just taking forever. And then I think there’s a lot of parallels between dating and and, and jobs. Because if you think about it, and I always say people want to work with people I get along with and talented people and it’s the same with a and you want someone bright you want someone that’s interested in you and respectful and culturally agrees and all fits well. And I watched a really good podcast like Hawkins brown did a really good five minutes. Five top tips are well i think you’re right we need to do five top tips. So we’re gonna do five top tips. But I really like Hawkins brown one and one of them was basically he went through a few things. He went through passion, he went through interest and he went through a culture and that’s what I’m talking about now is that the he said that Hawkins brown he looks for people that really excited to work, then I culturally fit. And when I say culturally I mean almost ideologies, right? Because it’s even I guess in the team. So I’m a DME company, on the architecture team. There’s an ebb and the flow when you get in the river rhythm is fantastic and make that happen. You need people who kind of are there for the same goals and enjoy working with each other and have a bit of banter right now and you know your way that
I get to annoy you too a little bit sometimes but we have a bit of fun with it and we can like see a guy you go in a quiet you smile drag. This the thing of it’s like that you want people on the team who wants to be there. And then I think that’s the point. I mean, I’m on metallic company, because I want to be there. You’re the same. We’re all the same, right? And that’s the vibe you want to get in the interview and following up and asking professional question that’s been difficult things suggest that and by suggesting that that’s what gets you the job, because people hire firstly the motion, Jackson, fantastic guy do and then with the facts, and he has the rabbit hole, maybe somewhere around they go All right, jack, but you know what we’ll, he might he might not be as you know, outgoing at first sorry. Well, at first, though, you’re very outgoing. But he has the Revit skills to back out. So, yeah, that’s kind of how I feel about him.
Will Ridgway 15:18
What I will say as well, just to add on to it, I think sometimes, quite rarely, but it can still happen. Sometimes, the company can string it out for a really long time. So whilst whilst it’s still there still potentially could get back to you. And therefore they putting you along? It’s probably best. Not Yeah, well, you don’t want to reject anything. But what you want to do anyway, regardless, after, after an interview is that you don’t want to just rest back and be like, right, that went really well. company. So they really liked me thing and get back to me later this week, you don’t just rest and put your feet up, you want to just keep doing what you were doing before. Because for you know, that company could string you out for weeks. And then suddenly, they could turn around and be like, sorry, we didn’t win the project that we were hoping to win, we got hype. So it’s important to once you’ve done the interview, just keep applying, keep getting interviews, because you can’t rely on one company, we’re even more than one company to take you on, you’ve got even if you’ve got like five interviews lined up, they could all end up being knows for whatever reason. So it’s important just to keep on having a conveyor belt so that you don’t get in a position where you’re back at square one again,
Stephen Drew 16:28
really good point. And I’ve seen that happening. Now, there was someone on the social and if you haven’t checked out the architecture, social calm, definitely go there. But realise community people were also looking, this is a boy environment. And I remember this was one of the night and she’s super talented. She was like, You know what, I don’t want to keep getting rejected, I’m gonna give up. And I’m just thinking like, what go on. And it’s almost silly, but you know what, we’re in a comfortable environment. And we’re all supportive. And you know, my reaction is I should get my horn out, go like, Come on, get go get going. What are you waiting for? Why are you like, Why are you giving up after like, one interview, you’re so talented. And you do have to be out there. And let me tell you, you got to go for it. And if you don’t go for it, yeah, like we’ll set a project could change. And remember, it’s not personal, it’s always like, there can be so much choice. And, and the thing is, it’s like me, I went for 10 interviews, and I got all they got, I got two offers. And in part one, one offer was for 15 grand, and I was almost going to take that went for an offer at 20,000 other practice, which was ageing 100. And the one I didn’t think I get that was the Patriot and he was the last one. And he was the one where I was thinking, you know what? Not sure. And they got back to me the next day. So and I kind of I did the opposite approach, I just went thank you very much slapped the hand off, and I can’t wait to join. And I followed up with a big thank you. And that’s the other thing as well. If you do get a job, make sure it’s very clear. Also, do not accept the job offer and then not go and then go and do not mess people around. That’s the last thing you want to do. If you’ve got two offers a free offers a way out, it’s fair to say that you have those offers, and that you plan to get back to them on a certain timeframe. And if they can’t wait, then they’re probably gonna tell you. And that way, it’s fair, the last thing you want to do, and meanwhile, we know this a lot is to kind of go there, then not go there, then say you want to go there. And they because what happens is the whole relationship starts to erode. Because they start thinking, Oh gosh, is this person playing with us? Or is this person not a very good decision maker. And suddenly, you’re then you all that hard work you’ve done, you’re becoming the person going like, I don’t know. And so you’ve got to it’s like in life, you’ve got a strong, strong professional as you make decisions, and you can make the wrong and sometimes when gosh knows I’ve made a few wrong ones, right? The thing is, though, you got to live by it. And the thing is, there’s no rush, there’s no gun to your head with the scenarios that taken the job off the straight away, you can actually take your time you can you can do it up, just be fair with the time frame that you go back to them. And remember as well, if a company strings out game back to you for weeks, weeks and weeks and weeks, they might have a legitimate reason to completely like COVID right now it’s very, very temperamental. So you have to understand that because the project might come back on if Okay, equally unethical practices being a little bit flaky with you, you know, there’s no point to get upset. The last thing you want to do is write them a map or anything like that. Just thinking you had you know what, maybe there are better places out there. You know, maybe maybe the and this is it because not everyone’s on there organised. And there’s usually a lot of reasons why is probably the Jets. Remember how much your decision is, is there’s
Unknown Speaker 19:55
I think if
Jack Moran 19:57
it’s a tough lesson to learn, isn’t it rejection, I think You know, kind of a lot of comparisons between dating and interviews, even myself as well, I think I’ve had some interviews, you know, we’ve got most of the best feedback, but it has been rejection and the mouth, you know how much you tell yourself, you don’t care, there is always that part of you that sort of wants to sort of wrap up to domina, and stop. That’s why I liked what you were talking about as well, the conveyor belt sort of situation, you can’t get off it. Because if you do, like, it’s easy to stay off. It isn’t. It’s easy to get comfortable in this sort of world where you’re just not applying for any jobs. And you’ve got some Latinos and weird ideology in your head that a job is going to come to you. I think that’s a big thing. But moving on terms of the topics I wanted to actually discuss, you know, the offer itself. Yes. So for those lucky enough to actually get the offer. I mean, most people will leave or get an offer when they go through verbal communication from a recruiter or there’ll be contacted directly from the practice via email or telephone. Aside from probably have a glass of champagne to celebrate what Stephen will, would you How would you guys go about the offer? Okay, so let’s really dig into it from the moment you get, you know, to the moment of making your decision, let’s break it down. Okay, cool.
Stephen Drew 21:14
One level, let’s pretend that the focus on this is a little bit more on the graduates right now. Okay, because when you go further in your career, everything’s a lot more considered. Because basically, you need to work out where you want to go, you need to think about what steps you want to go. It’s very clear as a part one, if you were in one go in industry. And I think that you have to read instantly. Before you get an offer. You have to weigh up whether you want to work there, based upon the actual the feeling you got any interview, as well as the way they’ve handled it after that. And because you think it’s a fair offer, you weigh it up on wherever it is work that you’d like, the kind of company that you’re interested in. And then you basically make you can make a decision. Or you I mean, what is your first choice jack? Guys, he haiden over there a lot
Unknown Speaker 22:09
of internet difficulty, Steve.
Will Ridgway 22:10
Yeah, you’re pixelated now.
Stephen Drew 22:13
Oh, yeah. Let me know my screen. Jack’s going? Oh, no.
Jack Moran 22:18
Let’s go to will and let’s Yeah, we’ll we’ll go about it.
Will Ridgway 22:21
Yeah, it’s I kind of agree with Stephen, because that’s what I was thinking like. So when a good getting an offer, but you’ve got to actually think, do I want to work there, because you could have come out the interview and being like, actually, I really didn’t like the office, the setup was wrong, the person I met was rude, I’m not really interested. So yeah, if if you don’t want to work there, you don’t have just because getting offered doesn’t mean you have to accept it, you could decide to turn it down. And that’s fine. If, if it’s for legitimate reason. And when I say legitimate, I mean, for something that’s definitely not gonna change once you get there. So for example, like the environment, the studio layout the people, if they’re there, it’s gonna make it very difficult to work and you’re not going to enjoy it, and then you’re going to be looking for another job, months later. So it’s important to work that out first. And, you know, if you are interested, then you know, all you need to do is just say, Yes, thank you, I would love to do so now there are obviously complications, too. If you, for example, have other interviews lined up, or you’re waiting for feedback from someone else, then it becomes a bit more tricky for you because you’re thinking, well, I like this practice, they’ve given me an offer. I have an interview with another practice this Aj 100 practice that I’m really keen about, I’d love to see what they’re about. And that’s fine, I think because what we should do is fill out with Steven saying earlier about being respectful about the timeline, maybe let them know, say, Thank you, really happy that I’ve got this. I do have an interview with this company tomorrow. And I would like to see them as well. Just Just to give me a better idea of so tricky. is three days.
Stephen Drew 24:09
Next, I think I think you know what, the if you’ve got an interview after enough, I think that’s a tricky one. I don’t know if I would if I was an employer, and you said that your interview and after made an offer? I would assume you’re not interested. So that’s my personal opinion. And you know, we’re allowed to have different opinions on this show. Right? That’s why is it the base. That’s why what I like about what you said, though, is you’re on about the timelines, and you want to what you’re on about is transparency, which I think shows a lot of respect. So what I would do is if I had a few interviews early in the week, and then an offer came in early because sometimes it happens where one comes in and they go, we want you that and they almost like come on, you’re going to join and you’re thinking Well, I’d like to hear back from Foster’s and partners or so and so. So there’s a way to flip it around and say Look. So and So jack Moran architects are super, I mean, I love that interview. And I really appreciate you come back with with, with an offer straight away. The thing is I’ve seen other practices. And while I am inclined to take the offer, I need to know I’m doing it for the right reasons. And I need to hear all the offers on the table so that it’s not something I look back on. And I think I’ve done it in haste. And therefore I’m working for the wrong reasons, I want to know that I’m truly working that chapter around partners to do the next big Moran building and be part of the team. Therefore, the way I feel is fair is that I planned to get back with everyone on Friday, and it’s Tuesday today, you from me up for an offer. So what I’m going to do is I’m going to tell everyone else, that’s the situation, and I’m going to let them know, a timeline. And if they don’t come back and the timeline, then then I know and also I might organically come back before. But what I can do is I can commit I can come back to you on that days. Is that and I’m thrilled with that. I just need to digest and go through this in a professional manner. Is that okay?
Jack Moran 26:11
But that’s Yeah, cuz you’re it’s not like you’re, it’s all about the wording, isn’t it? That’s all yeah. So you’re, you’re playing the you’re sympathising with them saying, you know, do appreciate as well. But you have to make the point known that you’re not just there to say the first job that sort of comes you know to you. Because you think about a little bit of awkwardness at that moment is better than you say you’re you know, you’re an artist, you’re a graduate part one, you’ve always wanted to do heritage work. And that’s what you want to go in through your architecture career. But due to complications and wanting a job, maybe financial or for whatever reason, you accept a job working for an architecture practice that only does affordable housing, and six weeks down the line, you realise that you’ve made a mistake, you’ve then got the more awkward situation of having to leave your employer, you know, on such short notice, as well, as opposed to just you know, saying to them at the time, you know, you want to carefully consider your career as well. Well, I like that point you’re bringing up as well, essentially, you you can’t make everyone like you can’t and you’re not going to like say it’s almost having tunnel vision like that you can’t go into a practice just expecting to love it. If you’re going to meet people who don’t get on with you’re going to be interviewed by people who are probably some somewhat nice, not everyone’s a nice person. But do Do not let you know the small ambitions as well get in the way in front of your goals as well. But at the same time, you’ve got to recognise that getting a gang a job during this time is hard. But even in normal, you know, without COVID, an older lockdown, it’s still hard to get a job, because you’re always competing against however many other graduates. So that, you know, the big thing is is all about sort of making yourself stand out as well as keep your keep yourself in mind, you know, don’t be that person who jumps into the first thing they see six weeks down the line, they have to make an even more awkward conversation for themselves.
Stephen Drew 28:00
Yeah, and you know what, as well. And the other thing that put in here is that sometimes I think I’m guilty, or we’re all guilty of it as well. Sometimes you can really overthink a practice in the laughter. And sometimes we can be too precious. And the worst side of things is that, obviously you’ve worked really hard, right? So you work really hard, you’ve got your first and you’ve got a lot of stuff. And not everyone gets to work in xiety or something right? And not everyone wants to work anxiety is a fantastic architectural practice, right? Well, it claimed there’s loads of different types of architecture out there. And this is the thing I want to kind of get at is the idea of practice in your heads. And that you may it can be totally that you need an architectural practice maybe which isn’t famous and can be really humble, you can learn a lot of experience from that, right? That gets you to the practice that you want to go to in the future. Or sometimes you can go work somewhere like EPO where I work. I mean, they’re always been well respected. In recent years, though, it’s gone up and up and up. It reminds me a bit when I when I went to Westminster, and to get in there you had to have, you could get a CC and now you can’t get in unless you’ve got all A’s and things change over time. And being there along the journey. And just as much higher value you get out of it is really important. So what I’m trying to say is sometimes a large architectural practice where you got some more responsibility can be not as useful as we are a place where you get hands on experience. At the same time I worked in EPR very large practice and I got given a lot of good responsibility. So the thing is, especially when you’re early on in your career, you can jump in and make sure as long as there’s somewhere that you want to work in some shape or form. Don’t be too precious about whether you finish at 630 or five or whatever. Think about start getting some experience to get on the ladder. And then you can move up from there. And remember, in your second or third job, when you’re a part two or part three, you have that experience to draw no comparison. And that’s where in terms of what our jobs and what we do so in recruitment, that’s where it gets more complicated. And I find it quite interesting as when you’ve got someone who’s gone five to 10 years in their career, and they’ve made traces and they’ve worked in different aspects. And then they’re looking for something in the next step, which is going to propel their career forwards, okay. But when you’re a part one or part two, maybe working somewhere, which isn’t technically famous, right, it still propel your career forward. And remember, what you’re doing is you’re then getting something that you can get your hands into, and you can have an opinion on. Because until you work in an architectural practice, you don’t necessarily have an opinion on it, you have a perspective on it. Okay, you go, well, the perspective, the perception, I should say, our perspective of this article practices, if you look at their website, their award winning, they’re always stuff. But when you actually go there, it feels very different. And it’s the same thing with another architectural practice, it might not necessarily have all the bells and whistles, or they might not be well known. But you learn a lot. And that’s the thing that when you weighing up offers, it can be really consumed, it can be really difficult. You’re on some of the other thing is like, someone asked me a question, today of Should I take $20,000 apart once I was 22. And my opinion is, how long is a piece of string salaries are so subjective, but they boil down to what you’re worth. The thing is, though, you have to start somewhere. And normally the first salary in terms of when you get a job, as a part one, it’ll normally be a bracket across the office, it’s very rare, you get 500 pounds or five pound more than someone else who has the same level experience. And it’s the same thing that when you two gentlemen started two years ago, in recruitment, you all had the same salary, you all had the same salary, you were exactly the same, right. And there’s a few reasons for that. So that when you go down the pub, and you say how much you’ve got, and you kind of go, Oh, I wonder you’ve all got the same. But also, when you haven’t got that experience to begin with, you start with the same, so ever, it’s 2021 22. Don’t get precious about the salary, think about what you can offer. And think about if you want to work. And try not to overcomplicate, you know,
Will Ridgway 32:49
I think it’s important to remember that salary is it can always change. So for example, if it’s slightly a little bit below what you’re looking for, that can change, I think what’s important when you’re starting out is what can this practice give you for your future. And that’s important, because I think I’ve placed people for at at 100 practices when before that they were at a two man practice, you know, doing smaller bills, but because they had so much experience as a part two, or a new qualified part free, it meant that they were, you know, in terms of across the board, they’re probably above their peers, they were working at larger practices where they had a little bit less responsibility. So it’s important to find out what practices can set you up for the future. Because the honesty is the first practice you go to is probably not going to be the practice you stay with for the rest of your life. I mean, some people do. But it’s very rare. That’s the case. And that’s because things change. You might move locations and work for you, for example. So it’s important to find somewhere that sets you up for the future that can give you as much experience as possible. And then salary of course, you want it to be good. At the same time. Gotta be gotta make sure that you don’t stop yourself from taking anything really good opportunity, because the salary is 1000 less than what you initially planned for. It’s got to be livable, based about weighing up about what your priority is. And everyone has a big list of everything they want to do, like heritage is gonna be one walking distance from my home part time, you know, you’re never gonna hit all those points, you know, find out what point is the the main thing that you’re looking for, and try and hit that and then all the other ones are bonuses.
Stephen Drew 34:28
Yeah, genuine because we’ve got that question and untenanted so I mean, this talk about your question at the moment because you you It’s a tricky thing, if you fit sometimes people can feel undervalued in terms of salaries and so forth. And you know, the thing is with architecture, right? It is a very unique job where you get to build buildings, make improvements, you get to help students, you get to build schools. I grew up in a very bad school and we had a bad hospital and to actually change stuff. You can you can literally change the fabric of society. And it’s the same with, with residential. So right now there’s loads of modular stuff happening as low as a low, affordable housing, right. And this is this is housing, they can make a massive difference in people’s lives. And this is the kind of thing where I’m on about when you’re weighing up an architectural practice, you should be thinking about, what do I want to do that I’m worried? Or what do I want to achieve? And what is that company going to teach me that I’m going to learn? And what can I contribute there? And let me tell you, if you’re thinking about the pound straightaway, architecture is not for you. We all need money, right to survive. The thing is, though, money comes with experience over time, and it is one of these things, which is really tricky. And is one of these things that yes, of course, we all want to be a value than we all want to have salaries that we have a comfortable living. What you need to do, though, is you need to remember of where you’re at right now. And what you want to do. And my question is, if you’re thinking about if it’s another career has 2000 3000 pound more than what you’re on about, I would question whether or not you’re interested or in love with what you do, or you maybe you don’t even know yet, so you need to give it time. But there is there is just more than just money. And this is what it comes down to an offer, do not make a decision just because or 1000 pound more, think about the company. because let me tell you, if you’re working long hours, that 1000 pound doesn’t mean anything. And I know of lawyers, and I know people who are so fascinated and jealous that architects get to build buildings. And even though it’s a lower salary, they make a difference. You can make a school that improves people’s lives, it really is that simple. And you can save people’s lives by making a hospital, which is more efficient. I mean, look what they did with their bvp did with COVID. Right. So if they set up the whole thing, didn’t they down the road where that if we did go or up on the Richter scale, people wouldn’t die. I mean, that’s really pretty serious. And at the same time, though, you got to remember that and we can talk about this down the line. Another thing that our architecture was really important to me, and I absolutely love studying architecture, I did work in industry, and I found they really enrich them when I was there. And there were certain things I really liked doing though. And this career, I could have never got so active screener, an artificial recruitment specialist, which we’ve done for the last six years, the reason where that all comes from is working in practice. And that’s the kind of lessons that I can bring onto the team. And that’s the thing now that I we can ask free, we all have completely different degrees, but they’re all complimentary. And it’s my background combined with, you know, wills, tenacity, and Jack’s philosophical aspects. And
Unknown Speaker 37:56
I couldn’t give
Stephen Drew 38:00
you super talented. But this is the point you need to be all different jacket. Look, you got to take him out. Because look at the person with an architectural background typically doesn’t meet the best recruitment specialists. And that’s me. But what it does do is it helps me understand who wants to listen to you. And I really care about matchmaking and getting the right person for the right practice. And that’s why when someone asked me straight away about the salary and architecture log about other things, I just think it’s a really wrong way of looking at it. And you’ll probably is, your opinion will change over time, you just got to give it a bit of time.
Will Ridgway 38:42
I think most people in most jobs, you know, regardless of profession, they always feel undervalued, you get a lot of people sickly now I think as well with the kind of situation where lots of people trying to get work at the supermarkets, just to try and get a job because they just needed something. And obviously, they felt like a bit undervalued there, they do a lot of work. Same with Amazon, for example. You know, you put a lot of work and a lot of effort in and sometimes it doesn’t feel like it. And I think every job, every profession, you always feel undervalued because you always feel like you’re worth more than you are but it’s
Stephen Drew 39:16
yourself, don’t you? Well, you can’t. You can’t You can’t rock up to a company and be like, I am the best. Because if you say that to me, I’ll go are you Why tell me and then you and then this is fine line where you need to be as hungry and then you get some of them. Let me tell you, right, the stuff I’ve learned over time. That is you when I was relaxation practice, I didn’t know anything. And I always just it was just raw hunger and eagerness. And what you can’t do you got to be you’ve got to do is you got to remember that if you’re going somewhere, you might feel that you were 25 it might well feel like you were 22 they’ve got to spend a lot of time and energy into that. And so part of my job right now is that I am a manager and then we tell you, right. So we will work hard as a team. There’s an element of. So when you guys join you, maybe you didn’t know everything, and I impart that. But I have to do go do with what I, you bring your energy to the table, and you’re hanging us to learn. The thing is, though, if you don’t have that, I can’t impart it. But I have the wisdom here to teach the wisdom. There you go. I feel like Gandalf the Grey now, but I have the wisdom, or what I mean is that I am all for in teaching someone my thoughts and things, if they’re open minded, right? The unique to bring that and what you can’t do is in tell you that I’ve I’ve hired people that say, Hey, I know everything. And I think you too, can think of a few people, I want to have a I can do it all. And then when it comes to the crunch, it’s not the case. And so you’ve got to be really careful not to overstate your value, because your value that you’re on about his future potential. And I agree, you might be worth 100,000 pound in the future. Right now, though, you’ve got to build that up. So there’s that point of being humble, because I don’t think you can’t, you can’t go in a bull in a china shop. And think that you It’s good that you have your own value, you’ve got to you’ve what you’ve got remember is that you’ve got to be given the opportunity to prove yourself. And let me tell you, when you’re in a company, and if you go above and beyond a good employer, they ever know it, and they should reflect your value. And if not, you can bring that up. But don’t shoot yourself out of the opportunity. Don’t cross it out until you’ve got there.
Jack Moran 41:43
Yes. And just going on to one of the questions or they go
Stephen Drew 41:47
Well, now, I got all excited that so sorry, jack, my internet connection,
Jack Moran 41:52
it’s all going. It’s coming in from Benjamin, he’s asking now, how did you deal with speculative interview? And how would you follow up that?
Unknown Speaker 41:59
Good question, actually,
Jack Moran 42:00
because, you know, most interviews are going to come about from them, you know, directly asking you in for an interview, but from a speculative angle. Do you see there’s any different precautions that you need to take Steven? Because it’s kind of on a different Foundation, isn’t it?
Stephen Drew 42:15
What do we mean by speculative in that view? I imagined why I can imagine is perhaps they’ve either they’ve bought him in what they might not be, you know, concrete opportunity there. Oh, right. Okay, can I and as to whether or not typeset person will be a good fit everything speculative in life, you know, and it’s kind of I think getting in the door is half of it. And when you’re in the door, in the interview, you make the moment. And it’s the same thing after I would free a speculative interview as an interview. Because the reality is, unless the same thing you recruit. And so what I do is that if I see potential, and if there’s some level of it, you basically you support that potential, because they’re more of an asset to you, in the long run, than saying you can’t, so I’m always inclined to, to, to, if you see talent to make something around it, and that’s tend to be what a speculative interview is, the truth is, there is sometimes it may be a project falls through the thing is, if you smash the speculative interview, they’re gonna remember you. And there’s times that we’ve seen it in terms of what we do, where, when a project comes back on, they’ll hire someone. So if Do you not think that it’s a weaker, interview, do not, do not underestimate the power of speculative. There’s sometimes you go for an interview when they don’t know this particular team, which you can go on. And you could go on a few teams, sometimes you go back to an interview. And that’s the thing as well with this is that sometimes you have one interview, and you could get called in again, I had with one of the companies we work with, where they they interview one of our candidates, one of our architects that we know, and there wasn’t right for that team, but they invite them back the next day to talk to another team leader. So that can happen as well. It could be that then you meet the main director and then goes and thinks you might be better suited for another team. Because that’s the other thing as well employers that a good employee will think about what the company and see the value on it. So they might they might see your value in the company and somewhere else. Let’s put it that way. So they might go, Oh, well, it’d be good and another team in the office. And so how you deal with respective interview are treated the same and the follow up, I will do exactly the same. Excellent, I think,
Jack Moran 44:30
I think as well, when you’ve got remember, even if it’s speculative, just because practices and hiring, it doesn’t mean they won’t hire. You know, if it’s certain, like Steven said, if it’s a good person, if they if they you know, if an affordable housing architecture practice, find someone who is a whiz with Revit. And you don’t really make a strong addition to the team, the likelihood is they’re going to create something around that person. Because you know, that person is putting the work that tenacious enough they’ve gone about all the right way. Opportunity can be created. So just coming to the sort of last chapter of this seminar, I think we’re going to go into a bit of the more negative side now. Okay, so we’re going to be negative, yeah, we’ll be talking about dealing with rejection. This is something we’ll actually touched on earlier. But the analogy about the conveyor belt. And I think you know, the good, the good thing, the good thing about rejection is it’s your opportunity to really pick out the faults in where you went wrong. And so the first thing we talked about feedback in the in the first part of this now, if it’s a rejection, I think, personally, for me, that’s absolutely fine. But what you want to do is display a mature attitude towards a person who’s giving you that rejection. Reason being is because if someone calls you up and says, We’re really sorry, you know, you had a really strong interview, but we decided to go from someone else. If you start calling him every curse word under the sun, that is going to be a short conversation, and you’re going to gain nothing from the interview. However, if you flip it on its head to a more optimistic approach. And if Steven called me up, sir, Jim got the job. I’d say, Steven, I won’t let you know that. That’s sad news. For me. However, I really appreciate you taking the time to interview me, just want to put you on a phone, do you have 30 seconds to tell me if there’s anything in the interview that I could have done better, if there’s anything missing on my CV or more? Well, my portfolio purely to aid me going forward for the search, what that’s going to do is show them that you do have a mature attitude towards your career, and you’re actually serious about improving yourself to get into an architectural practice. So that like Siemens said, you know, the same way with the, the officers handling them, how you do it sympathise with them understand, you know, be mature about it and look for some sort of positive reinforcement from it, find out what you could have done better. There’s nothing wrong with hearing a bit of criticism, if it means that three months down the line, you find a practice that you do want and you know, you end up in there, what do you think guys?
Stephen Drew 46:54
Great, great, great productive criticisms is variable. The other thing I would add jack is that the real impressive thing to do as well is to keep in contact, you can always contact them in six weeks time as well. That I mean, no one thinks about that. But why not? Right? Got jack we met last year, I had a really fantastic interview, I just wanted to double check and like, touch base to see where you’re at as a business and whether or not we can we can catch up. I mean, that’s what happens at my level. That’s, that’s where people get jobs and you won’t believe especially people down the line in your careers, anyone contracted or anything like that. It’s all about who you know. And when you’ve met someone that the positive interview, even if they said no, at that time, remember, it can be because of the project, it can be because of one or two things, it doesn’t necessarily mean it’s because of your ability. So it get in touch count really helps with sorry, well, I cut you off there. What were you gonna say me?
Will Ridgway 47:47
Yeah, I think I mean, I’ll give you an example why it’s so important to make sure that you leave have mature attitude, because then that that’s the last impression they get. Now, the reason why that’s important is that I’ve had clients call me up and say, remember, the person that we interviewed six months ago, I have a job, that’d be perfect for them, do you even really possibly even get in contact with them. And that’s the reason why because they think you can wait, just because you get the job now doesn’t mean getting never gonna work that company again, that’s why it’s important to leave with a really good, good impression. But it’s important to get that constructive feedback, because, you know, you don’t want to wait for them to come back in six months time or a year’s time you want to you do want to make sure that your search is still still useful now. And so get that feedback off, be really polite, very thankful, and keep that door open. And then use that feedback to help you with your search going forwards. And your tours, you know, it might be they could always be someone that could always be someone that was just more suited for the role because for example, if you had a senior living scheme, maybe they had a bit of experience as a part one or zero schemes, whereas you’d be entering it’s new. And so you know, there’s not much you can do about that. And that’s just the way it is really so you know, sometimes it’s feedback that might just be something that you might not be able to even add to interviews maybe you get to the interview well and then in a way that ends up being good feedback for you because then you know you did everything right. It was just unfortunately there was someone else who just had just slight bit more experience than you that picture the line that’s why it’s important to you that even though that certain ad turns into positive feedback a guest doesn’t get interviewed despite being rejected as he is use that for your next interviews going forwards Yeah, I don’t have much more to add to that.
Stephen Drew 49:41
No, it’s fine. I think I liked Jack’s point of the thing is remember rejection doesn’t feel nice okay. And it’s normal and it goes back any bad put that song in the background you know when the breakup song when you kind of like they’re gonna be good. It’s like take my pick yourself up. Because when you’re in the by the conveyor belt, what you Want to know is your I know what you mean, you’re not in about trucking change what you’re on about is that you’re on about this production methodology that gets you along that gets you to see efficiency. It’s like the whole thing of the Ford Focus that all the optimization in the car, everything in sinking keeping going along is what gets you the job. And I think you’re right, jackin, Huawei, you’re saying that if you get hung up on one company, it stops. And if you don’t ask for feedback, you know, less. And if you don’t chase up with things, the process gets longer. So all the things that we’re talking about to summarise is stuff to keep things moving along, or keep you getting new opportunities or for you, it’s worth it for an offer to come in. So then you can keep moving to the next step. Because one of the things what I was thinking of the next one could be actually goes as now we talked about this is that you almost feel that now you’ve got a job, you’re like well done. So say now, let’s say jakka accepts and he joins McDonnell company architecture team, and he knows he’s going to be in for a fantastic time, but we’re going to go wind the clock back. And what is is that maybe we can talk about preparing yourself to get to the job when they go into the job. Because it is a bit like going to school for the first time. I was like really nervous. I was gonna go on. And then there’s also a few things you can do to really actually boost yourself along few things. We can talk about getting software again, right thing and actually, how to make an impression in the office how to get used to it. If you’ve not already. I think that might be really useful.
Will Ridgway 51:31
What about some handing you notice in as well? Yeah, well, yeah,
Stephen Drew 51:34
we’ll do that down the line. Maybe that’ll be like Episode 20. Because we still got like, we’ve got 15 episodes of joy. Yes, amazing jobs, and then
Jack Moran 51:44
we’ll finish it with how to get fired. Never, never got.
Stephen Drew 51:50
Hey, I’ll tell you why, though. I think you might be onto something with them maybe how to deal with stuff happening like Coronavirus and redundancies, because I’ve been made with them before. And let me tell you, it doesn’t matter if you how good you are. If sometimes if if, for instance, an airport gets cancelled, because why to stop going because of a worldwide pandemic, you might be put on notice. And it’s not because of your ability, it’s because the airport’s not being built anymore. So we can talk about stuff like that as well. All right, great. So I mean, I’ve had, I’ve had a really good time. And so we’re all on architecture, social Comm. We’re also at McDonald company, I am back to work as well. So I will be posting roles. And we are working them together right now. So and if you if you I will keep you updated on roles like that. And if you have any ideas for the social, let me know, again, it goes back to the thing of I love the interaction here. And I love the questions. And I know, I mean, I was a highlight to the field. But you know what, we’ve got to challenge each other sometimes, right? Because that’s what makes us better. And I like the fact that we all ask questions. And I like the fact that you asked tough questions, and we can have those discourses. And that is the point about the song show. And that’s so awesome. That’s what I want to make me shake my bow, but I thought too much about shaking.
Unknown Speaker 53:08
Maybe a little.
Stephen Drew 53:10
So keep talking. That’s how we get successful. But you know why it’s true. I think the more people on that talk to each other, and the more people I get involved, and the more people that ask this course and challenge each other, and and pick each other up when you have rejection and celebrate each other’s success. That’s a big one. Because it’s so easy to be like, well, he got a job,
Unknown Speaker 53:31
I think I’m
Stephen Drew 53:32
better. Like No, you should be like well done. And you know what? Well, how did you get a job? Can you give me some tips? And is that thing about the social and that aspect about? If we all did, bam, we start collaborating. Then in terms of Jack’s feedback factory, we’ve got we’re going like 1010 100 million miles an hour. And if you shut yourself in a box, in a little like, I wait to see if they come back to me. But I don’t want to ask in case I’m worried then you you just never find out. It’s kind of like mostly called was that saying well head in the sand or in you know, just don’t want to know.
Will Ridgway 54:13
And so by
Stephen Drew 54:14
burying your head in the sand, burying your head in the sand, yes. It’s like, well, if you do that you’ll never find out. And sometimes, remember, the feedback is constructive. And if you ask for constructive, constructive feedback, then that’s a very delicate way of saying can you give me tips on what I need to improve?
Unknown Speaker 54:35
Jack Moran 54:36
a really good question
Stephen Drew 54:36
was constructive feedback for me normally not too many vowels. Too many bouncer was enough bells. Too much. Yeah. All right. Great. Thanks. Thanks, everyone, for joining us this week in
Unknown Speaker 54:51
Stephen Drew 54:52
All right. Take care guys. Bye bye. Bye bye.
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