It’s not as uncommon a feeling to think after studying
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Jack Moran 0:08
It’s the 23rd of September 2020. It’s 5pm. I’m your host, jack Moran. Welcome to another episode from the architecture social. I’m joined here as always by my lovely guest even drew. I am I am I am a guest. I feel privileged. I feel privileged. It’s mine today because I’m going to be we’ve got an interesting episode, haven’t we? Unfortunately, not all the gang is here. We’ll Ridgeway as some prior engagements. So
he’s busy doing work. It’s completely unacceptable behaviour. How very
help very day. Anyway, I think we need to keep the show rolling. So today’s topic, we’re going to be talking about different careers within art.
So yeah, quite nice topic you’ve gone with this week, Steven, so why don’t you tell us a bit about your thought process? Okay, so it’s a first of all, it’s a crazy week, and we’re all feeling a little bit loopy. Lou? You know, we had we had Boris Come on last night.
Stephen Drew 1:10
And everything’s changing. I can’t really do a good bias impression. Can you though, jack, you do?
A little bit slow, isn’t it?
Yeah, we’re all a little bit confused right now. And and, and it’s a tough time. It’s a really tough time. It’s a little bit like when I was looking for a job during 2009 on is quite unnatural feeling to bump your head against the wall. Think? Is this for me? Am I having any luck? Or maybe you want to do something else? And also, sometimes when you studying architecture, you might feel like, it’s not for you? Because you’ve been a little bit traumatised. Maybe you had a bad experience at uni, maybe the tutor is like, excuse me, Stephen Drew, do you like I’m not gonna work in that guy? Very, very, very, very unnatural feelings to feel. And what I would say is a few things. Okay. So I actually moved careers have been away from mainstream architecture into architecture, recruitment. So I am, I’ve always been passionate about architecture in a broad subject. And that’s what I want everyone to think about today. There’s obviously a reason why that architecture is a reason why you’re a designer, there’s something about you, which may you do them all nighters, then maybe there’s something about you that doesn’t like certain aspects of them all nighters, completely normal. So there are other avenues, there are other things that you can do an architecture, just because you study architecture, doesn’t mean that you have to do the mainstream routes equally. And this was my little surprise thing that I didn’t put on the title I didn’t want to challenge is because when someone’s thinking about leaving architecture, I want you to really think about, are you leaving architecture or why you’re doing it? Because it’s like, with me, and you track, you are in a fantastically privileged position, because you have me as an amazing boss, and you wouldn’t want to leave for whatever reason, right? Of course, of course, of course. But hypothetically, hypothetically, I’m a bit of a pain or whatever, or sometimes my attention span isn’t that long. Or sometimes I get all loud and hot and bothered and stuff, start, you know, scenarios, which would never happen. That might tarnish your experience of recruitment. And that can happen in architecture is the same thing. And also, you might find that in architecture, sometimes when you do get into industry, you think, this building that I’m working on, I’m working on this, like rundown car park, and then you’re like, I did not study for years to do a car park, right? And I would be like, yeah, you didn’t. But then also you got to think you’re gonna start somewhere and the car park is literally the car park, we drove in, and hey, one day, you could be designing them beautiful offices. So what I want everyone to think about before we go into this, and we’re going to talk about different avenues, you can go within architecture, and then alongside architecture, and then outside architecture, but before you do it, we’re going to go into ASMR. So we’re gonna be going over the topic, like the therapy room, okay. So think about why you did architecture, think about all the years you put into it, think about and get rid of all the distractions, you know, things that the resistance of finding a job because it, it can be tough, but if you do get that job and you get in there, maybe you are passionate about it. Okay, so first thing
If you haven’t managed to get an architecture yet, because the climate is tough right now, then you can do it, you need to persevere because what you don’t want to do is brush architecture before you’ve had a chance to work in architecture. And what you should do in the meantime is keep looking for jobs, keep looking for other jobs, which are killing be customer service or anything. Design related. Anything related to architecture. I interviewed today, jack. Okay, call with Chris. Chris is one of the direct Chris Hart is director of squares and partners. He literally started out in his first job, he couldn’t get a job in an architecture practice. And he was on a construction site. And the podcast will go up later in the week. And it was really fun talking to him about him. He literally how the measuring tape on a site and he joined each got there. And they went anyone here. Yeah, I can read out measurements and they went nowhere. With that, you just came off the street? Oh, you think we are, we want you to hold the measuring tape at the zero. And I’ll read out the measuring. And from there. He did that he worked on the construction site for a year, realise he still loved architecture. And then he worked and then he then he went back to study architecture. Okay. When I was studying architecture, I worked in Waitrose, I was, I used to cut the chickens was good experience made me realise I don’t want to work in retail. Okay, so that’s the flip side of this. So there’s a lot of avenues you can go. So the first thing is, if you’re struggling to get in architecture, okay, that’s normal right? Now, sometimes you were, you know, you can have one of your friends who’s talented and they’ve got the job. And you think I’m gonna, I might, maybe, maybe maybe I can’t do it, you can do it persevere. But you There’s nothing wrong with getting the job, which is related to architecture in the short term, while you work in architecture.
Jack Moran 7:04
So that’s number one. So numbers, even if I could just jump in on you there as well, that point that you’re going off on, it’s like, so you made the switch to new from, you know, working in industry to going into architectural recruitment. And I always sort of say about Stephen Drew that you can take Stephen out of an architecture practice, but you cannot take the architecture our Stephen Drew, because I will tell you from personal experience, a Steven is a very design oriented person. And you know what I’m talking about Steven? Like, I like
Stephen Drew 7:38
that. Yeah, go jack. It’s not good enough.
Jack Moran 7:42
I think in even you know, your talk about Chris artists as well, I think and it might be a concern for a lot of you know, graduate architects who say they’ve gone through the process of looking through our previous episodes, and they’ve got their CV or their spec, so they visit practically it’s gone for interviews, but they’re still not having the lock. And like you said they might just get you know, fully put off. But even if they go work into another job, like a waitress, if McDonald’s anywhere, yeah, they put in the hard work of you know, working towards an architecture degree before they have to have something about them, don’t they? They need to be a sort of design oriented person. So they shouldn’t worry because naturally, if they are so interested in architecture, they are going to be drawn back to it at some point, aren’t they? Because that’s why you kind
Stephen Drew 8:21
of you can go in and out of there and and yeah, working on a construction site working with people I quite like the aspect of Waitrose, remember, I’ve got fond memories of people screaming at me about biscuits and not being on the shelves and trying to find them. Really customer, it was really, really interesting experience dealing with people. So Brian parallel quote on here, hey, Brian, there you go, you’re on the big screen, problem solving skills of prior many walks of life. And that’s true. So you gotta remember that Accenture is a really tough course. And if you for instance, you ever to one architecture, then I would argue you’ve got some really good like skills, and they can be applied to different things. What I’m getting at though, is before you go off divergent stuff, which is completely normal, I did work in industry for three years, okay? So if you can try to persevere with getting the job in the industry, because I think it’s important in life, to work in places and then develop a perspective. And what I mean by that is that I have an opinion based on my architecture based upon the fact that I worked there. I was in a large architectural practice, I worked in different schemes. And therefore, when someone speaks to me down the pub about what it’s like to speak in architecture, and then I offer an opinion. And you know, I can talk to you about what it’s like to work in retail, and we have a giggle about it now because I cut them chickens and I got in trouble because sometimes I had too many chickens The other day I put them in the bin and are now I was ruining the environment, and all this kind of stuff we giggle about now, but as perspective. So I would really encourage everyone that studied architecture. To try and still apply for that job, and if you’re in an architecture practice is not quite the right fit right now, do persevere a little bit. And then if you feel you got you want to do something else, then do it. Explore the other options. Okay?
Jack Moran 10:15
Just something big there, Steve. And on that on that point as well. It’s all about, you know, having bad experiences, within a particular practice, what people shouldn’t do is try and allow that, that one bad experience, you know, shave their whole view on architecture as a whole, if you like, if you may have an argument in our job one day, and I let that say, right, recruitment is not for me, because one incident happened. And I think that a lot of people can fall into that, you know, because yeah, you are, yeah, you know, have a bad day or you’re not treated? Well. It’s not very nice. But yeah, don’t let it define the general, you know, not all of architecture is going to be like that.
Stephen Drew 10:47
Exactly. And, and that’s, unfortunately, because the way you think about work, it’s, we’re all human beings. And unfortunately, there is never a perfect job. There’s always strengths and weaknesses with each job. And this aspects, you got to go about it. Okay, if you’re running away from architecture, because you think it’s hard work, let me tell you, or any other career, if you want to go far in a career and you want to work, you have to work hard, you have to you have to go the extra mile. Because Yeah, I put it this way, when I was like, I want to move, do something a bit different than architecture. I did that because I felt I really enjoyed them. But I was never the guy passionate about doing a technical drawing. Okay, that wasn’t me. And I didn’t have the, the certain for us, our architects have. Okay, so, ironically, there’s a few buildings I worked on shackling, me and you were going to go down to, once with I’m going to show you a beautiful tall will take you on to McDonald company out, and then I’ll show you one with the least of them. And I’m proud of that, because I when I worked in industry, I’m proud that I worked on a building and so I have no regrets for that. But it was difficult. And there was a sometimes a few late nights because the project was under pressure. Okay. But I realised that I was not the guy who’s gonna do another project on a I that was my swan song. And I was like, Look, I like speaking to people. I like pitching. I like presenting. I like dealing with complicated problems in a different way. I’m not going to be the guy technical drawing, so I wanted to recruit them. But let me tell you, recruitment is not easy, you know that more than anyone else. And so we’re not going to go into too much about recruitment. But what I’m on about is, it wasn’t like, Oh, yeah, architecture, that’s a site. Now let’s do a really easy job. Because you know what? It’s like you join recruitment. And people go, do you have the ability to pick up the phone and have a conversation? And what I’m saying is, that’s a skill set that not everyone has so and I could do it, not everybody, not everyone can. So where I’m going with this, right. So if you find yourself in architecture, like I was, I had this feeling like I didn’t really want to do my part free. And I remember at the time, I almost felt a little bit like, there was something wrong with me like that on my part one, but part two, within five years, I’ve got two ones, which is really respectable grades in both categories. It wasn’t like I was struggling or anything on paper, but I just felt like I needed something to change. And that’s where I saw our recruitment. So if you kind of are in that position, and you want to explore something, it’s not necessarily the end of the world. There’s a few things you can explore. So I talked a little bit at the start about if you haven’t managed to get a job in architecture, but because of the environment right now you’re struggling to get in there. I do think it’s worth persevering. But feel free to get another job in parallel. Don’t don’t freeze and staying indoors. And, you know, believe yourself every
Unknown Speaker 13:59
Stephen Drew 14:01
Yeah, don’t go free aim down the YouTube channel. We’ve all done it. But come back into the light, you know, and and find a job and get out there and try and do something creative. Let’s say you’re in an architectural practice, though, think about working on different projects, different teams, think about, okay, I might not enjoy this project right now, if it’s not particularly enjoyable. But this is going to be a good experience. I was trying to remember what you’re trying to get out of a practice. And we’re think about if you’re passionate about them, for instance, I don’t quite see you as the Revit. Guy, jack, I think you’re a bit more like me. But let’s say now you’re a BIM wizard. Okay, there’s transferable careers there. So you’re enthusiastic about Revit, you might find that you really enjoy writing about Revit research and aviral rabbit training people, okay. There’s a role for that called people coordinators, and BIM managers in an architectural practice, and you can grow into that role. So there’s loads of alternative career As with in architectural practices, okay, where you basically whether the enriched thing comes from that way you get a B have been good been coordinators if you work on architectural projects, and, and why in recruitment that, that I feel I am able to help people better and understand their problems is because I worked in industry, that’s not a golden rule for everyone, you get very good recruiters who, and not from an architectural background. It’s an advantage I have, though, because I do work in the industry. So there is lots of lots of different ways about it. So we’ve got quite a few comments. Yeah, I love Brian, Brian, you’ve been an absolute trooper. And so let’s, can you click these fingers? jack? Are I going to click them to try and click bring him up? I think that’s gonna be you. Okay, so. So we are. So we’re gonna, we’re gonna go through a few different things here. So as you can see, Brian’s mentioned a few suggestions of different roles. Architectural journalists, very true. You got the ag BD for jobs. I absolutely, I’m the wrong person to ask about writing anything, which is longer than a job description. Don’t matter that jack. I’m watching you. Okay. But some people love it. And there’s a few people in the architectural social who are passionate about writing. And I would encourage you like Sana she is the person behind scale, the scale is very much synonymous creation for someone that likes to go out there. And you know, she was featured in Rebbe magazine is really good. And you can go out there you can you can, you can push into these careers, and they come from a place of passion. So if you’re interested in journalism, write something in architecture, right on the occupational social, right on the LinkedIn, get in touch with these companies. There’s companies which do marketing for architecture. So when the project comes out, they write up the they do all the written texts for for the projects. Sounds small, but it’s actually a huge job. Oh, we just got by just saying that you could be a cake designer. I quite like that. Exactly. Being creative. I knows. my hairdresser was an architect. As architecture degree, let me tell you, it’s an expensive haircut. And to write right when you get the architectural degree and diploma, if I’m going to get your haircut, but don’t get me the cut your hair cut, because I’d make a big mess of it. But if you were to get if I was to be a hairdresser, I would definitely build upon all my articular skills because of the amount of really cool, and the amount of really interesting and hard work that you’ve done. Okay. So we got an idea is coming thick and fast, Brian love interior design that that’s an interesting one, because we touched upon it a little bit before then we drag we’re talking about technologists, because you can actually study as an interior designer, that can be your degree, but it goes it goes either way. I’ve seen good interior designers who are very good at architectural components. And you get architects who do a lot of interior design, it could be an interior architect, for instance. So there’s definitely ways to go between that we’ve got more 3d cutter laser with that. Yeah, there you go. And we’re not on about Harry Potter. What we’re on about is cats. Have you ever seen them like you understand it? Well? Well,
Unknown Speaker 18:26
Stephen Drew 18:27
you call Well, now,
Jack Moran 18:28
there are separation issues.
Stephen Drew 18:30
Yeah, well, he will Spanish. And so laser cut and strange little cub, hops, reprographic freebies. So all the 3d modelling 3d printing, so architectural buildings get printed in them, you can learn how to do a lot of CAD, a little workshop all that stuff, right? I was the worst person for that. I used to have these big, fat fingers making models model makings, another career from architecture, okay. And you can if you’re interested in modelmaking, if you’re not like me, and you destroy every finger, but big hands, right? If you’re not like that, then you do enjoy spending little time in crookedly building stuff. Then architectural model making is absolutely never career. Again, it goes back to that theory. Okay. A good if you’re an architect, your specialist specialises in interior design. If you understand architecture, then you’re going to make more informed interior design, it’s going to feed into what you do, if you’re an architectural model maker. Okay? The your background in architecture is going to inform, or you’re going to understand the point of view or an architect, when they’re panicking about getting out the door. You can be like, Okay, I understand that. And you’re going to you’re going to basically do everything you do, it bleeds into it. So all the experience you’ve got bleeds into it, the fact that you study architecture, when you write journalism, you’re going to be passionate about it, and you can make more of an informed decision. Unless you’re like me, and you can’t write anything at all, and therefore, that’s probably not an article that anyone wants to read. Okay, so We got more we got more things coming thick and fast. I can’t keep up with this giant loving it.
Jack Moran 20:04
We got to be very active today.
Stephen Drew 20:07
We got everything Okay, so we’re gonna go to the top. Okay, right we’re gonna go to the top. So Kara was looking at Lou red is the motivation that 10 years before that is quite cool. If you feel like you’ve lost the way or you’ve had a bad day in the office, period, your motivation letter from 10 years earlier, you kind of find the spark. Yeah, that’s a really good point. You gotta remember, you’re on this journey for something. I always wanted to create something. I always wanted to do that. And yeah, okay. I don’t work in mainstream architecture or practice. I help people in their careers, most importantly, the social, right. I love being involved in that. And more importantly, I love seeing what the guys adore everyone in the community builds. And there’s and it’s really nice. So I get all my architectural juices out of that by doing that kind of thing. So there’s loads and loads of ways about it. Okay, because this one from Brian, when the recession hits, people start running wine bars up until 10 o’clock, Brian, because after that the Coronavirus comes out. But yes, I know people that do businesses so it was one architects who did a gin ba. And it was that one jack, have you heard about it? Where you go into the room and you breathe in the gin in the air? And you get drunk? Because in the opposite? Yeah, there’s a bar. Oh, this would be the kind of thing to look up online. Can I do that? Let me get rid of all my tabs. And then they actually sell gin in there as well. What
Jack Moran 21:30
do you just go in there to sniff it? No, it’s
Stephen Drew 21:33
in the air. So this like the the alcohol is in the air? See very architectural. So you go in, we have a chat. And the amount I’m talking I’ll be on the floor comatose and you will still be there. Okay. So there’s a lot of things. So we got Brian’s got a few more suggestions. Architectural historians.
Jack Moran 21:51
That’s interesting. Yeah. Yeah, exactly.
Stephen Drew 21:54
GW they had a librarian was an architect. Okay. I know people and foster partners to the material libraries. Okay. I know people in fosters and partners who are solicitors or lawyers, or whoever specialism in law, but it’s built upon a career in architecture. So they basically make sure that fosters and partners are legally protected and not sued. So breeam assessor, excellent example, Brian, I know you’ve got a fantastic career where you’ve gone into, for instance, sustainability. Sustainability is a massively important thing. And when I was an architectural practice, I had a little bit of exposure to Bre m, and what size is like an assessment platform for how efficient the building is, in terms of sustainable mass? warjack? So So is everything about building it’s like, where the materials coming from? Are they been flowing in? Is it locally sourced material? Are you using renewable energy, renewable water?
Jack Moran 22:54
and ethical side about Yeah,
Stephen Drew 22:56
and from that, you get a great from it. So you have people which help consult on the building? How to achieve that? Yeah. Okay. So, architectural podcast, not quite a career yet. I still need my job to do it. So yeah, almost there, but not quite. Environmental consultant. Really good point. There’s a few companies that I know that look for people from an architectural background to consult upon daylight. They unlight analysis. So what that means jack is that when a building, they assess the windows, if there’s enough light, so like this year, if this was too small, or there’s a neighbouring building, you’re going to be dark, like in your little matrix world that you’re in now, jack, and now you’ve closed the blinds. But basically, if Imagine if you had no choice and the window was rubbish, then that is not very, very depressing. Yeah, very depressed. So your people who consult in that,
Jack Moran 23:52
okay, they do in central London as well done a lot of the buildings, they have to have to meet certain regulations. So they’re not blocking a certain amount of sunlight to
Stephen Drew 23:59
Yeah, exactly. And that’s nasty Korea, where you keep you have an architectural background, they’re going to be open to it because you understand buildings. Brian mentions website editing. Okay. Yeah, absolutely. I know, one of my friends who’s got his part one. And then he is a front end designer for a read scripts. So he is actually the matrix he is so he really does all the codes and all the stuff I don’t understand what even mean, the architectural social website I build and Okay, I don’t code it from scratch, I get sometimes I get a bit of templates, and I adjust them and they learn a little bit of code. But that kind of ability comes from me to an architecture and as architect as you know, jack, I can be a little bit keen about presentation in my di company. So I did our own architecture brochure. And I was very adamant about how it should be because I’ve like, I’ve got a degree in the poem. I should know it goes right.
Jack Moran 24:53
In love Steven.
Stephen Drew 24:56
Yeah, you go a sound is in your sound or a scale as you go. Really good website. Okay, so that a lapse in love your platform. And so actually a little shout out to sauna at scale here when everyone’s checkout to scale because if you’re interested in journalism, Sarno wrote a community book is basically a box, I wouldn’t call it a magazine. And it’s really nice. And I’ve got a copy here, it’s in the other room. I have to get it here sometime we have to showcase it. But basically, that platforms, collaborators. So if you’re interested in journalism, you can get involved and you can do some right. And that can be the kind of thing that will spare on conversations for the future. Wow, I can’t keep up with these all these comments. jakka.
Jack Moran 25:44
Why don’t we go to I’m seeing a question here by the architectural experiment, you know, the roles we were talking about? Yeah. So how long? They sound almost senior, don’t they quite expert. Nice role. So what about what, you know, what, what can graduates look at? Is there anything for looking? Who might be in a similar position where they could look at potential roles? You know? Yeah,
Stephen Drew 26:03
good question. So you can see how there’s a theme of a lot of these roles that and build out of the architecture experiment, as pointed out, I do think a lot of these require a little bit a little bit of industry experience. Okay, there’s a few that don’t. So there’s a few architectural practice as there’s a few developers construction companies, which will offer schemes to graduates graduates specific schemes, remember, we were speaking to a chap about a month or two, that he was going to go into a graduate scheme, and he was a big construction company, jack, and they were all gonna offer him a year’s worth of work really good. And he was out it was in construction, a lot of it would be to do with infrastructure. Okay. So you do have these graduate schemes, you do have graduate schemes in property, as well. So we work with developers, the developers will have graduate schemes and they’re open to anyone with a degree, you will find that you can even become a stockbroker, if you wanted to based upon your degree, and you will probably find that there is an entry to do it. But like everything else, there’s going to be an interview, and people are going to challenge the heck out of you. I was CRC I was good that didn’t sweat because they were going to do a live recording that attack. People have to challenge you. And and what you got to remember is that when I went for a job as a recruitment consultant, the first thing everyone would say is, why are you giving up arctica? Are you sure you want to give up architecture? And when I interview people to work on recruitment, the first thing I go is, do you really want to work in recruitment? Yes, reveal those stories. You can have a nice life monies, they can be definitely hired and architecture, I will be upfront about that. It is also incredibly hard. And and I remember I was as I’m like, Are you prepared to go to a dinner pie and people will criticise you about when or groups on. And if you’re not go down the road. And, and what what I’m going to say to you guys is that when you study architecture, and you you look into go into a divergent topic, you are going to be tested on it. So you need to really think about these things. There’s absolutely nothing wrong with it. But I went into a head on my said, Look, I done architecture, I really am passionate about the sector. The thing is, I am not the guy who’s gonna get excited about technical detail and I am proud of the Billings I’ve done. I am keen to pursue this, I am keen to go down recruitment, I am passionate about speaking to people, and I believe I’ll be good at it. And more than that, I am ready to do it. I made a decision. I have added my nose in architecture practice at length and good terms, I’m ready to go. So I’m gonna want to do it at your company, or I’ll do it somewhere else. But I’d much rather do it with you. Okay, so it’s like that energy, and persistence. So if you have that, you can look at our careers. But that’s what I’m trying to get to you guys now is that I spent so long deliberate in them. And I really fresh out in my head so that when I went to that interview, when they asked, Why do you want to move? You’re not going because people are going to ask, but let me tell you, the actually the mighty networks, the platform, the platform, the architecture, social is built on the lead developer. He was watching one of his webinars about the about the platform, he was for architecture. So there’s absolutely loads of things you can do. Okay, jack, let’s try and dissect a little bit more of the comments because I’m really they’re running away from me.
Jack Moran 29:48
I’ve filled up one that I think’s very interesting is one from Francesco. About the computational designer works. I said, Yeah, I really like this idea. Even we remember before the Hulk Well kicked off, I remember being you have a very specific conversation about how the sort of future in architecture did lie in the sort of, you know, the visual computerise design that you do see. So, whenever architecture practice or you know, facing clients and their inner projecting or whatever buildings look like they will use, you know, the NA, Why,
Stephen Drew 30:19
yes, game engines you’re about, right? Yeah. Because like an architect is going to be designing and building and you have the way as tools are moving at a fast pace. So we can now look at BIM in real time, and there’s lots of other stuff and you can actually, there’s loads of careers in that. And so freely game engines, okay, that’s one form of architectural visualisation or representation in life form. Okay, that sounds like a lot of jargon. But what I’m saying is freely game engines, we play a game and what we see live if you’re playing Call of Duty live, again, people move live, live live. And that technology is now applying towards design and architecture. So that enables an architect to make design decisions quicker. So Francesca, when you are about computationally books and coding AI, there’s loads of companies that do that. One or two shout outs with the matter lab, there’s a guy called David Flynn, who used to be bid manager at Grimshaw, he now set up a company, you and he does a lot of scripts, I have a good friend called Tom mahone. I’m going to try and get him on here at some point, Tom, I’m coming for you, I know you’re going to be a guest. And Tom owns a company called by morph. Now, Tom used to work at Foster’s and partners. And I can’t go into specifics of the project because this is life. But he was very, very influential. And he wrote as a part one, in Foster’s and partners, he wrote a script and that script on a project, optimised it and saved hundreds of man hours, which, in terms of what how this was saving the hundreds of hours basically saved the company a lot of money. Okay, that is a true true team effort. If you can save 1000s of hours on output, then that you’ve done a really good job to the architectural practice. So computational design, this definitely you got more and more roles in parametric design. I know. I know, someone that studied with me on Part Two and got a job at bryden wood as a computational designer. So that is another avenue to go down as well as very niche. You have to be really passionate about it. You have to be that guy who’s got a lady who’s been working the midnight oil and wrote scripts and stuff, but it’s equally rewarding. So but what’s his question? Right, let’s go back to Francesca’s question. Consider it optimise multiple aspects of design the answer in terms of how much information Yeah, so basically, what you’re saying is people and we specialise in the process of architecture. Remember, your architectural design then building information like management is a whole nation itself computational design, you know, there’s companies like a kt who do structural work of architecture, and they do all the they help realise all the amazing wibbly wobbly projects, which you would think is completely barmy stuff like Heatherwick and anxiety to help make them stand out. Saw that yes, graphic design that definitely look into that double check though. How much money is involved in all these jobs? If you’re moving over from architecture to graphic design, there’s not much money in it so you got to be really passionate about all the subjects you got another really good topic from design never really good suggestion from sauna. Which 1am I missing? jack? Yeah. Well,
Jack Moran 33:42
there is a Brian is coming up who suggestions? When is he Saunders one here as well.
Stephen Drew 33:48
So Sam, this is a nice recommendation talking about AI. So Nicholas Darby. I mean, yeah, if you’re interested in this stuff, that may be a good thing before you kind of like knee bolt out of architecture. The first thing that you I would always do is that if you’re interested in BIM, for instance, and you work in architecture, why not start making an effort with the architect or the BIM manager? Who is in the practice? Why not trying to moonlight and then if that person then learn from them, okay, if you’re interested in marketing, in the architectural practice you’re in, why not speak to the architect and a market here, okay. might speak to the head of marketing, say that you’re interested. And slowly, what you might find is that you do a little bit here a little bit there, maybe a little bit in your own time and suddenly your role moves towards it. You’re interested in journalism right now. Okay, if you’re interested in journalism, get involved with Sana scale project, she’s writing content, do a get out there reburied pre and post that. You’ve got to do stuff. You’re going to be out there and go for it. And you can do it in a way that you can do it where you’re doing it lightly. You’re doing little bits before you kind of And you’re no se and then get up 46 and get walked out the door. Okay, so when I was curious about the idea of going to recruitment I research that Yeah. And what I would say is if you’re interested in maybe performing arts or setting up exhibitions so I used to know someone in Manchester who used to do all the sandal lighting for nightclubs and he was made to actually and I did I did all the shows I did outside showing you jack it if you google I think Manchester hospitality second stage 2012 you will see me doing all the light and all that Oh man, I totally need to show it share the screen for this kind of thing. Maybe I’m going to do it so luckily experiment with that how you do it. So see
Jack Moran 35:55
why just doing that as well as soon as as well as a pilot one of the questions as well as talking about you know, freelancing. This company architectural experiment nice and sometimes it feels like you know, in order for someone to go into a practice or you know, get go from being a freelancer getting work if they’re starting as a freelancer is it essential for them to have been in a practice first to have gained experience you think you know in architecture per se they’re trying to freelance from the very beginning but they don’t want to go and work in practice they
Stephen Drew 36:26
want to do I guess we got we got Inception going on. Sorry, jack. I messed it up. You don’t need to you just fill fill it out. Oh, no. You can see my screen. I’ve got distracted jack. Oh, no,
Jack Moran 36:38
I’m messing it. Okay, but this is all very new to Stephen as well. For everyone watching is. Yeah, let
Stephen Drew 36:45
me get a hang on. Okay. All right. Hang on. I’ve gotten all right. I’m on the case. There you go. Right. So hospitality 2012 YouTube’s right. I’m really proud of this site.
Excuse me, click on it. Yeah.
Jack Moran 37:15
When you tell us a bit more about this what you’re looking looking up for it as well. YouTube’s YouTube’s ask not the correct way is that
Stephen Drew 37:23
so I just did the so in Manchester, so hospitality do a second stage. Oh, I’m gonna have to find a way around. I like I’ve got the Brian Brianna Britannia hotel. I didn’t do that at all. In that. I’ve kind of gone completely
bonkers like love festivals. Anyone been to Manchester? What’s it called? Yeah, I can’t find them.
Jack Moran 38:03
Maybe meet up for that. And they know.
Stephen Drew 38:06
Oh, yeah, it is. Yeah, this is me. I did all my info this. Yeah. Oh, there we go. So we go. Yeah, I did all this light. And I set up all this stuff here. It was really cool experience. Really, really cool.
Jack Moran 38:23
Visual sort of design. The orientation.
Stephen Drew 38:25
Yeah, hospitality. I did high contrast high contrast. 12. So I’m getting there. The End guys. Sorry. Yeah, high contrast Manchester. One kind of get with all this is that this year we go right. So do you go back? You’re going to be really impressed with this. Now. Can you hear the sound as well? If I turn it on? You can hear there? Cannot No. Okay, good, because it’s terrible to see all this light and rain. So I did this. And they were on stage. They were on live. And so I got this old cowboy kit that might stay with my to forgive me. And I had to make it all work live. And so I was thrown up there. You had always hospitality kicking off you have me in the background. I had to put the strobes on had to design there. And then I had to get the screens in the background of doing the factory this, and I never been briefed on it. Right. And the thing is, is like, I got that from knowing my two or at the time. And him he got me on board with it. So basically from that, oh, there we go. It was something completely different. So I’ve done that. I mean, I’ll show you a few were the practice of the century. So when I was in architectural practice, I’m really proud that I worked on this. I don’t really do I architecture anymore, but I mean, I worked on that I did that double Mansard right, who’s really really cool experience, and that informs that so when I do act, recruitment now, I feel like I know what I’m talking about. Okay. And so we were talking a little bit About solmaz projects alien sort of scale
Unknown Speaker 40:06
Stephen Drew 40:09
Alright, so sound and she’s got her own blog here. She’s got her own little website. She’s got this whole community as well. And she did this magazine. Okay, I’ve got it in my living room, there you go is on Reavers website. Getting the magazine, right beside that getting the magazine. So this is one of those. So if you want to break into journalism, you got to do stuff like this because if you go into an interview, I guarantee you if you did this or you were involved with this and then you weren’t and then you research. So architecture, marketing companies, okay, I can think of one or two, top of my head. Being media. Okay. Right media, PR communications agency for architecture. Oops, sorry, guys, man are getting all excited on my little quest online. It’s quite cool, though. Drag, isn’t it? We’re now officially YouTubers. And so what I’m on about is that these companies, okay. They write for projects, they write what’s happening, they write about new adventures, they talk about the story. They take the scheme and they instil it into words around if you’ve done something like this, when you going in through you go I’ve done architecture or I’d get involved with this. Or you know, for instance with the occupational architectural experiment. Oh, you go, you got my the thing there as well. Here we go. So I did that I did. There we go. We’ve got this is no, this website, the architectural experiment, right? Nice journalism. I read a really good one, which was linked to the class of 2020 basically simplifies and Well, hopefully here is okay. This is the kind of stuff you need to take to the interview, this is the stuff you need to get out there if you’re going to kind of move careers. So. But then we know that’s what we talked about is that and Sano actually works in architectural practices. Now, they all enrich each other. Okay, your writing is enriched by what you do in architecture. And your architecture enriches your writing then, right and, and your experience in architecture informs your BIM, okay, you experience in architecture and industry, unfortunately, recruitment, my recruitment, then influences my views and architecture, I’ll help people. And so it goes around and around and around. So Brian has seen buildings, he seen things work. And that’s and all these things inform people about the design. So I’m going to turn off the website right now. That was quite fun was and I got there. In the end, I sweating for a bit trying to find like, I can’t find that best of all.
Jack Moran 42:54
Though, Steven, it will, you know, when you are looking for other jobs that all these little things, even if you do it as like a side hobby, you know, all this journalism or historical writing whatever it is, it’s going to make you stand out. It’s tough to put on your CV and your LinkedIn, as Simon just said, as well. Yeah, but it’s going to show I think it’s going to show versatility that you’re not just a design person who can draw lines and Angelo.
Stephen Drew 43:19
Masha can take just like I did five years, everyone, you work so hard. And what it is, sometimes you have to be brave and white jacket, what jack was trying to say eloquently, is, sometimes the bravest thing is to kind of realise that you want to do something else. And let me tell you, when I moved away from architecture, some people thought I was insane. study that long, you’re not going to be a recruiter. And now, you know, yeah, that was scary at the time, it’s gonna be scary moving to another job, it’s going to be scary, trying to transition over to something else. But if you’re passionate about it, do it. I definitely would encourage it. But also what I want to say to people is
architecture is a good career. And I what I would encourage people to do is that I did work in industry for three years before I decided to do something else. Okay? If you kind of definitely fed up now and you don’t want to work in architectural practice, then Okay, I just think it is worth persevering is worth going into an architectural practice so that you can get
an opinion you can make an informed decision. Yeah, do you know what I mean? So it’s less likely to Mr.
Jack Moran 44:32
Bergin here and get back up and yeah, and this is like a thing.
Stephen Drew 44:36
It’s like if you came in through recruitment, you worked on my team for a week and when I like as my you didn’t try, you didn’t try if you weren’t here to and yes, I Chris’s podcast, which I’m gonna, we’re gonna hopefully get out. Near the end of the week, is he when he hires someone, he says, come work with me for you. Let’s see what happens. Sometimes people go on to do different things than that. Fine, but definitely give it a go. Okay, that’s why I would encourage everyone to do here, if you want. Let me rephrase. I think if you’re thinking of exploring alternative careers or diverging careers within architecture, nothing wrong with that. And so that and I’m the person that has done that and is living proof that you can make a healthy career from doing something different after architecture. And the other example that came to my head, jack is that Rockstar gaming, you know, we’ve talked
Jack Moran 45:33
waiting for that name to be dropped dead. Yeah,
Stephen Drew 45:35
yeah, God, they do they actually hire architects to do free the environments.
Jack Moran 45:45
Stephen Drew 45:46
Yeah. Yeah. It’s
Jack Moran 45:47
quite interesting, though, isn’t it? Yeah, it’s like everything’s pushing in that direction is now and you know, I’m like, whenever we play any games were rock stars thing and how visually detailed they are. Um, it’s no surprise that they have to have like, almost like a visualizer or designer in in a role for that, when they need someone to be able to put these designs into place. It’s all becoming so massively good.
Stephen Drew 46:07
Yeah. And also think about it with GTA I’m harping on about GTA right now. But when you design the cities, it’s like the flower it’s like a good level. Okay. And an architect we’re being you’ve been trained in design, and you’ve got to think about it. It’s like one of these things that with games like GTA or design, or like a film or going into any of that, that when when they’re really impressive is when you don’t know his thumb. And I think that’s it comes from someone that studies architecture, what I’m all about is that the truth is, it’s a really good career to implement. Use, it’s a really good career to have. I’ve learned so much about how I think about business comes from the way I do architecture, everything okay, so it’s really really good I’m just gonna do a few more shout outs because I see what’s happening to Brian says when I was actually students shift this I was into a to a Design Specialist indoor air quality and then follow the her partner Australia where she became an environmental consultant. Brilliant following life’s you know, journeys travelling as well stuff like that. really enriching is everything makes complete sense. Brian, you got another good one here Brian, you really got I think you’re coming out on full force. He’s
Jack Moran 47:18
an MVP of today’s episode is MVP
Stephen Drew 47:21
MVP. Today’s episode, I wonder Okay, all right, everyone, the bow I left the bow but soon we’re gonna have a soundboard get Jack’s Bay. And I just I just I
Jack Moran 47:38
just saw one of the comments come off as well talking about Assassin’s Creed and talk about you know, city design as well as Assassin’s Creed a very historical kind of thing so that we have teams
Stephen Drew 47:49
I remember when Paris you know, the old they’re not the damn Cathedral or what have you kind of went around in game designers and architects on boards, okay in collaboration, me and actually, Assassin’s Creed they did such a good job of modelling the city that Assassin’s Creed Creed’s developers gave the city of Paris the model the 3d modeller to use. Yeah, so is this super super cool stuff. All right, I’m just going to look more of these now. freelancing part ones okay. Find out what I mean when you freelancing. freelancing is good experience definitely worth doing i mean i well when I was doing my part one I used to do little drawings and freelance for small conservative reasons stuff and I got a paper out per hour. Be business savvy, though. If you’re going to do work, ask for how much money okay if you’re going to be doing drawings, you should be paid something in some shape or form or you should have some experience and this is a listed charity or something like that where such as what’s the charity I’m always involved in jack because my mind’s got architecture but never society. And then you got article 25, though good salary, they’ve good practices. It’s like everything in life. Just make sure that if you spend time in it, you should be paid in some shape or form. You really should. So nothing wrong with freelancing find out per hour and do a bit of research online asking the architectural social Is this a good right as people right you can ask me I can try to comment obviously involves a lot of context and everything else going on. So what we got I enjoyed this message from Brian he says thanks for doing this is walking his granddaughter Oh, well, thank you right and do concentrate on do show up the next one. And that was that was a lot of fun on that. Match us, Brian, the question about what qualifications look as lighting designer, there’s one or two lighting designers on the architectural, social, there’s actually one individual likely post this CV that for the group so you can have a look, I think there might be specific qualities for lighting design or you might go at you can go into it. I definitely know you can get a master’s in lighting design. Yeah. So okay. Architecture, experiment, collaborating is very important. Exactly. There you have written save. So architectural specimens meet and rescale. And this all the thing is, I think the more and more you’re out there in the community, the more and more you’re making the better. Remember to use all this stuff for the next step. You know, what I want everyone to do is to go forward and keep looking for architectural jobs. And then if you kind of feel like you’ve done it for a while you would like to practice, then look for other stuff. But remember, if you’re going forward, you’re gaining experience, the worst thing you can do right now is to make excuses to yourself, you’re laying yourself down. Okay? You don’t want to why I was being a bit dramatic that jack sorry. One one about is don’t, in your head, go back and forth about Should I shouldn’t I go to it, do get experience through a bit of freelance work in architectural practice, write an article put yourself out there. What I’m going to do over this week, probably a good time to announce this jack, can you do me a drum roll or something? It’s a bit of fun.
new, new update, okay, so I’m going to do a content creator group on the occupational social, so it’s going to be a private group within the group for people who want to push ideas in the platform or want to push their ideas and I can help champion you want to write, journal, do it, I’ll help you do it. Let’s see it fail as you grow. If you want to post some content, fantastic. If you want to do events, great. If you want to write a blog about buildings do it. I’m gonna do a little group in the architectural as social called content great as influencers, and anyone that is a mover a shaker or anyone that wants to do some stuff and join me making a report, then let’s get involved and do it. If you want to write out a newsletter, I will help you publish the goddamn thing. We will do it. It’s not going to be as good as song as in scale. And I’m not really trying to look at that. But if you want to do something like that, then fine. I just think it’d be really good for people who are ideas. Okay, I’m on about you want to do a BIM course? Let’s get back on, let’s get out there. You want to do a book club? Right, Tony? On the Arctic crew social, great, I’ll help you build the book club. Okay, I’m going to be the worst person reading that I’ll probably get the page free. I’ll scan the page free time strikes, I can’t read anything else. But I’ll help you build the book club. And so if anyone wants to do any ideas, we will get the content creators. And maybe as well, when I let me rephrase, okay. You don’t need to do architectural social branding content. This is about using the architectural social to do your thing. Okay, that’s what I’m all about. We’re going to move shake we think of the architectural social as we’re kind of like a tribe, a community. We’ve got scatter, we’ve got a scale on board. We’ve got the Arctic Circle experiment. Everyone else on board, let’s get going. Let’s get going forwards. And so as kind of like, like a little bit of a family feel we’ll push forward. content creators, we think jack Good idea.
Jack Moran 53:32
I’ve got that sounds like a splendid idea.
Stephen Drew 53:36
Oh, that’s very Kuwait quintessentially English, isn’t it?
Jack Moran 53:41
I like that I like the content. But it all goes back to the idea of you know, engaging with each other and collaboration, networking. Although right now, you know, we talked about remember a few weeks ago, we spoke about the whole gym analogy with the whole sending CVS out, and now we’re working,
Stephen Drew 53:54
are you, then you because you know, you’re really good at it? Yes.
Jack Moran 54:00
Although I know, I know, even like networking with people now or collaborating and might not have so much immediate sort of results. Will it buy in the future? You know, yes, we are going through a recession right now. And there’s all COVID burn, it’s all down. But if we are on a down, there has to be an up that follows. And when we are in that art period, all the work and networking and collaboration you’ve done now is going to have a really positive effect, because you’re going to know a lot more people, you’re going to know a lot more of what’s going on in the market, you’re going to be a lot more tooled up when it comes to doing interviews, who’s hiring, where do I want to work? what’s popular at the minute what software is in? Where can I go, this will come from the groundwork that we’re putting in here. So if you look at, you know, like scale, look at the architectural experiment. These are perfect or platforms that highlight the importance of collaborating with each other and the benefit can have
Stephen Drew 54:47
Well said, I agree. So I agree with you that say the round of applause for Jacqueline. Now it’s true because what you want about networking and being out there, it informs your perspective. If you might collaborate on something and go, I love that I’m going to write journalism. Right. And I’ll see you make friends and connections and connections, open opportunities. And so we’re a part of what we’re on about, we’ve listed a role, a lot of topics and how they go into it. But guess what, right? It’s going on this construction site, going into an architectural practice me doing the social and meet in Santa meet in every once mean you working together, which has got us all to this point. And if I suddenly stop speaking to people, if I suddenly stopped networking, if we suddenly stopped challenging our own ideas and stop going forward, then I missed might miss out the other opportunities. And so that’s what I really, really feel is that, like, the, that’s why I don’t regret anything I’ve done. And that’s why sometimes, it’s like, my partner just says, My brain never turns off. And it’s kind of true. And sometimes it can be annoying when I’m in for Park and I’m thinking about what I’m going to add to the architectural, social and it’s like, come on, come on. Get a life, right. So but Okay, you’ve got to calm down and for Park. What I’m on about though, is if I if there’s really how easy for me to put these ideas into a vehicle and I feel alive when projects and and when things don’t work out as well. I’ve learned from them. I have experience. And it’s that experience which pushes me forwards, right? It’s people I’ve met right now I can I have an idea. I call sign her up with a nice little chat. I have an idea ring you up jack. And sometimes you like to stay go away. And then my idea number five, which open up a geiko. And it’s networking, networking will get you opportunities. And if you’re looking for alternative careers in architecture, stay, keep building, keep producing content, keep networking, and take opportunities, right back journal. If you study in architecture, and you’re interested in 3d game engines, build a 3d Gaming model that then goes into your portfolio. And then you go and speak to rock star jack, you say I built this. Okay, it’s, you know, part of my university work. I’m really interested in 3d game engines, they’re going to be like, wow, this guy’s Clevedon. And so what are the reason I did the festival? Now I didn’t, I’m proud of what I did. But imagine I wanted to go down in that festival route. The fact is, we were joking about it. And it took me a minute or two to get it up on YouTube because I’m getting old. But I managed to show you something I done, which if you were doing that, then we can have a conversation about it, isn’t it because I went out of my way to do that. And I got paid nothing next to nothing. I was in a muddy field freezing, but I wanted to do it. Okay. And so that’s the thing, you’ve got to keep pushing the work in architecture, you’ve got to you’ve got to do one or two nights, you’re not comfortable wherever and then you learn and you go, Wow, I’ve done that now, not want to do it again. Or you might do another project. And you might And remember, you can sometimes go away from architecture and then go back to it isn’t like a bad breakup where you can’t speak to that person again. You can flirt around with these things. I got a friend that always says I’ll do my part free. And I will be an architect. He always jokes with me sees him He’s like, yes, you will, you will be back. And I’m always like, you are delusional because I enjoy what I do. But look what I do with a social now I get my design kicks our there. And that comes from architecture. So the moral of the story is, I would not be here if it wasn’t for architecture. Let’s get that straight. Okay. My architecture career helps my recruitment. So it’s not wasted time. And the projects I was in Well, some of them were fun. And some of them were frustrating at the time, like life. It helps my opinion now, okay. And I made the decision to move. But I made an informed decision. I researched that. And I didn’t do a crazy moment I looked while I was working in architecture. And that’s the way I would do it. So you’ve had some really nice ideas here. Sorry, guys. I tricked you a little bit by almost seeing like, Yeah, let’s do a few things. But what I wanted to do was catch you here and go, aha, I want you to think about what you’re doing. And ah, I want you to challenge yourself and think about an architect. It builds buildings literally. But I like to think of an architect like the matrix. Remember in that scene, when they like the architects in the room and it’s like I built this
Jack Moran 59:46
life and I go with a pen the guy at the end is clear. Maybe
Unknown Speaker 59:51
Jack Moran 59:52
screens on and he does nine he says I’m the designer of the meetings. Yeah, when
Stephen Drew 59:56
he was and so and so what I mean is, he’s in Architects and in terms of I design, the active social I enjoy it. But then it’s like a real life project it completely changes in some things work some things doesn’t based upon the people in there and it’s fun and sometimes it doesn’t work and sometimes like right people insane my talk about it all the time. Like jack. I don’t talk very much do I? Not Yeah. All right, but okay. point is I get excited about it built upon architecture. So guys have a little Think about it. And now I think we’re gonna leave it there on the hour mark quite soon. So, okay, Francesco says if anyone’s interested in 3d game modelling or easier gaming sketchfab is amazing, free platform. Wow, that is a good shout out there on the screen, paused on the YouTubes. And Frank, you Francesco,
Jack Moran 1:00:52
and I have an engagement There you go. Opening?
Stephen Drew 1:00:54
Yeah. I’m loving this form. Well, if anyone’s enjoyed it, anyone’s got any suggestions for next week? Let’s do it. I’m, we’re going to start I did a little I did a survey the other week and this, their survey says, survey said that we have enough offensive there’s people enjoy these. Well, I think so. Interactive salary serving. So I’m working on that as we speak. So we will have that in some shape or form. And we will improve the format because I did an interactive salary at years ago, what I’m trying to do is just crack how we can do live data of salaries. So we you know, people submitted salaries, without giving away their details, like their name my companies, I got to be really careful about that. But we will get a live salary. Then jack, the next one in the survey said we want more podcasts. So we’re going to do that. And they were going to jack announcement for you. I mean, you know, you’re there anyways, but you won’t be able to back up now. So I’m telling you live. We’re gonna do the live architecture show, the architecture social show every week. And I think what we’re going to talk about is news updates, forts, bowels, horns.
Jack Moran 1:02:12
We’re gonna be talking about what’s hot. What’s not?
Stephen Drew 1:02:14
Yeah. Oh, it’s not? I can’t speak anymore. Yeah. And jobs, trends. COVID news app
Jack Moran 1:02:21
very much or content on what’s going on? Sort of, you know,
Stephen Drew 1:02:25
yeah. I’ll maybe we’ll do the quiz. Maybe we’ll, we’ll get well to do one of his dad jokes. Put everyone’s can imagine.
Jack Moran 1:02:33
We don’t want to lose ratings. We will lose ratings.
Stephen Drew 1:02:35
Yeah. We’re gonna go through that. And yeah,
Jack Moran 1:02:41
exactly the future incident.
Stephen Drew 1:02:43
We’re going to do all that. But I want to see everyone after this. If you were thinking of moving about careers, talk about it. Underneath this event, make a little note make a comment. There’s people on the on the architectural social, who are journalists, there’s a few directors and employers on there. Now, two people signed up today jack can’t say the names of the companies but one of them’s nature when under company and the director joint.
Jack Moran 1:03:10
So there’s some some big I’m
Stephen Drew 1:03:13
just saying it’s a good time to update your CV and put it on guys if I was you. So we’re getting there with the visions actually happening. But all ideas all input comes from conversation that comes from you. So if you want to generate content, you while you’re thinking about being a journalist in the future, get in contact with people who are involved in there. By the architectural experiment like scale, there’s a group called scale on the platform and you will have all the details how to contact Santa join the group do anything but just get involved be out there and just try and tap each other out and get some ideas. So on that note, I think we we sign that and yeah, we’re gonna get a little soundboard we’re gonna get a little jingle jack was gonna be our chin goes you want to do a little jingle nice.
Jack Moran 1:04:01
Did it Good idea.
Stephen Drew 1:04:06
You can’t use that copyright
Nintendo we’re gonna gas
Jack Moran 1:04:10
you got a guitar behind you. You can write you can write a song for the live show.
Stephen Drew 1:04:13
I can update the strings you’re gonna rumble me live. I am played for age as
Jack Moran 1:04:20
I think what will come up we will put our heads together with me and wanna
Stephen Drew 1:04:22
Okay, we’re gonna do a jingle we’re gonna do a Jenga. Okay, guys, I’m signing out.
Jack Moran 1:04:29
JACK and a guy this way. Thank you.
Unknown Speaker 1:04:31
Jack Moran 1:04:32
I thank you for joining us. Yeah,
Stephen Drew 1:04:34
thank you everyone. Santa Francesco. The octopus experiments. nilda Kerouac, Brian, and Brian’s grandkids aren’t much. Thank you everyone in the live chat. See you soon. Take away your week guys. Bye bye.
Unknown Speaker 1:04:51