The Architectural Experiment, Nylda Hamchaoui

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We were lucky enough to sit down with Nylda Hamchaoui from The Architectural Experiment to learn, explore and muse. Come join us to discuss architecture literature, journalism, job seeking and Stephen Drew’s bad habit of not reading Architecture books while studying. Also, there are a few bells and laughs too. SDx.



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Transcription (Raw Text)

Stephen Drew 0:07
Hello, everyone, I am Stephen Drew from the architecture social. And I am here today, we are picking up the podcast again. And I’m lucky to be here with nilda. Who is the founder of the architecture architecture architectural experiment nelda. Hello, do you want to tell me, which is the correct title? And how you are today? are you?

Nylda Hamchaoui 0:32
I’m very good. Thank you. Yeah. So it’s the architecture or experiment?

Stephen Drew 0:36
Yeah, I like the architectural experiment. I love that, gosh, I need you as we touched the bond, because we little chat before this. I when I was in industry, so when I was studying, I was the student they would didn’t read all the books of the right in that I should have, I was the no one who didn’t read the thesis who didn’t read that stuff. And then there’ll be other people in the studio that would know all the clever things, and they wouldn’t feel very clever. What inspired you? Do you want to tell us a little bit about what the architectural experiment is?

Nylda Hamchaoui 1:10
Yeah, so the architecture experiment initially was just, I realised that I would always give advice to people in my sort of cohort, even like during uni after uni. And it was this idea, because I’ve always, I’m actually quite the opposite to you. If you, if you ask me sort of before architecture, what I would do at sort of the age of maybe nine or 10, I’ve always loved to write. So that’s sort of been, yeah, that’s been sort of part of my sort of creative, I guess, creative outlet. And so because I love to write and I initially, the so I had the blog idea, a year before, when I was in my third year, but the opportunity came where my university were looking for a student to write just a bit about sort of the university experience of architecture on a weekly, weekly or fortnightly basis. And so I started writing there. And I felt like sort of, I was sort of getting out sort of what I wanted to talk about in terms of the the experience of sort of studying studio, studio and classroom discussions. Like the outside world, sort of sort of looking for work and sort of the professional vibe, but I felt like I was a bit limited. So once I sort of finished, finished, because I felt like there was a lot of things I couldn’t talk about because it was sort of under the student body. So I felt like I needed to start something on my own. So I ended up I ended up stopping the not stopping, but I guess because then the whole logistics of it kind of didn’t feel right with me. So I was like, let me start my own thing. And I sort of started writing just based off of sort of just basic. Yeah, I guess I started with letters, it was letters. It was letters to my third year self second years self and first yourself. Okay. Yeah, it kind of sort of slide from there. Yeah.

Stephen Drew 3:08
I love that. I read the one that I picked my attention that I think it was the class of 2020 I think you wrote a letter to them after that. That a poor case. 2020 It’s been a rough year for everyone. Yeah, that got my attention. It’s quite interesting. Because I kind of you know, it’s interesting we’re this we’re kind of rumbling who you are but it’s true. I the architectural experiment. It’s almost got a kind of a cool Banksy quality like you don’t really know where there’s was only home runs this runs his Instagram account with these. Cool, cool Ryan’s but I think that’s, that’s really interesting. And, and it was been an eye opener for me, because and how we organically got chatting was a while the architectural socialists building up I mean, I touched on it briefly, I kind of looked for a few precedents, definitely, you know, Instagram accounts, or social influencers that are really, this is really kind of important. I need to I need to keep keep with the times now 30 free. And it was, it’s interesting, because you’ve always got to be aware of what’s going on. And there’s people doing amazing stuff we’ve touched briefly about Santa’s at scale and her kind of unrelenting drive on on pre creating really interesting content. And I think it’s the same thing I really enjoy your content it’s got it definitely got its own spin on things as well. And what I enjoy is you can definitely tell you’ve got that passion and patients that I haven’t got for reading, which is amazing. As well as that. It’s interesting to hear what you’re talking about now, whether it’s drawn on your own reflections touching upon that Now it’s kind of a bit of a crazy time because you’re, you’re effectively you graduated now every year, this is your third year. So you’ve

Nylda Hamchaoui 5:09
graduated in 2019. So last year came last year. All right, cool. And are you so you’re looking for?

Stephen Drew 5:15
You’re looking for a job right now?

Nylda Hamchaoui 5:16
Yes. Yes, I am. Yeah. So it’s been a long, long a long journey, but I’m still pulling through, you find the tough thing, right? I mean, these last, I think in your head, you kind of have a timeframe of, oh, within six months, or within a year, I should have a role. But I think COVID kind of undid some of those months. And so I tried to sort of just mentally I think, go back and be like, Okay, I’m in sort of like the February March sort of area rather than sort of the April because I felt like things were unfolding a little bit for me. And then COVID was like, nope, we’re gonna we’re gonna close the shutters.

Stephen Drew 5:53
Yeah, it is tough. I mean, it definitely is some stuff out there. I mean, I’ve seen your CV and portfolio, I think it’s really good. So I want a written piece about now, right? You go. Remember, we were talking earlier about my balance, we got to get some more TVs out now that we managed to sneak the balance. I said, I’m gonna do the vowel I did the bat. I was expecting something. Yeah, okay. You’re very employable. So we need to get your job quicker. As well, it’s probably worth mentioning while we’re on the subject is that, and something for you to consider as well, for people out there, because I’m going to do one or two talks at some point about lateral or alternative careers within architecture. And if you especially if you’re interested in writing or any of your audiences, in particularly architectural journalism, I mean, you’ve got architectural magazines, but there’s lots of media or marketing companies out there, which are always looking and I think, a few of them that meet, I got this, I have a friend call Alicia, she moved away from recruitment, and she went into marketing and media, there’s definitely there’s a few, one of them that comes to mind actually is called Carol communications, you have these amazing companies that do architecture, press releases for projects, and as well as that the marketing for certain things. So that’s always probably really good thing for your maybe more for your audience, because I know you’re quite keen to work in industry. But no one really talks about that. And this is like the way I did recruitment, there’s definitely always stuff to move over to. And so where do you see at the moment? So you currently look in? And I’m confident you’re going to find a job soon? And when that happens? How do you think the Have you thought about how the contents of the architectural experiment may change?

Nylda Hamchaoui 7:48
that’s a that’s a great question. I feel like maybe I might be a bit more confident with the content that I do produce, because I think secretly, in my head is like, nobody, you’re sharing this advice and tips. But I mean, you haven’t really got from like that validation, I think in terms of, Oh, this got me maybe like a first so I can give advice on a portfolio or this, you know, this advice that I’m sharing about job employment meant that I actually got a job. So that kind of, I think it might give me just a bit more confidence in what I produce, because I think you can have that sort of, I know, personally, I’ve had sort of the imposter syndrome kind of thing, where, who am I to kind of share this advice? Because I didn’t get a first I got a two one. And that was sort of, I mean, yeah, I mean, but still, just mentally, it doesn’t. Yeah, it’s like, oh, I would have wanted to first you know, I mean, that kind of always, not really being sort of satisfied or feeling like it’s maybe valid, that I can talk about something because I feel like maybe the achievement isn’t the top achievement even though it is an achievement in itself. So yeah, I mean,

Stephen Drew 9:00
now you gotta Don’t worry, I’m gonna let you in through a secret. I always get imposter syndrome every now I think it comes on like a bad bow. Every few months, you start getting confident, you do all your stuff. And then I’m like, at the same thing as you I’m like, What do I know? I know nothing. Why? or What can I say all this stuff. And now I started, I’m starting to feel more okay. I think imposter syndrome is a bit horrific, because actually what it was, what is you’re doing is you are recalibrating the new check in yourself, but it’s not nice when it does happen. Because you have to you have to breathe, you have to muster that spirit, I think, Why? Well, you got to remember and the same way I think about it is a my opinion in the mic is based upon my experience and is based upon all the stuff I’ve done and every day I’m learning. It’s like the whole sentence of practising architecture. I remember I saw someone do when this is when I was in my part one. So it was Am I Part One a first year? And you know, half the time? Yeah, I’m studying and I got my two one. But you also have a bit of a giggle, you’re 18. You know, you’re playing around, I remember macsec coming in. And he’s like, every day, I’m practising architecture. And I’m like, no way. Once I get my part one, part two, part three, I’m done. Right? But it’s true. as professionals, you’re always evolving. And so in recruitment, I’m always learning. And then it’s the same thing. So you’ve got the the architectural experiment, I work on the architectural, social, and every day I’m changing. And, and the sometimes, and this is important as well, things don’t work, because we were talking earlier about the group’s function on the architecture, social and like how some things work, something doesn’t. And I’m sure it’s a similar thing with the architectural experiment, that is the name right. And hey, actually, you’ve got a free reign, because it’s the experiment. And I think that part of the amazing stuff about these platforms and building communities is that I was chatting with another architect the other day, he’s fantastic BIM specialist, as well. And he was talking about the sense of community, and I kind of think that people do like, unpause, unpolished, and human, slightly roar, out fallen, all this feedback and honest thoughts, and I much prefer, I prefer, that’s why I liked about your stuff is that it felt real. And you know, that we’re in a world crowded with designs and so forth. Yeah, I’ve, I think design is a very sexy publication, and there’s a complete place for it. At the same time, though, we need a bit of reality.

Nylda Hamchaoui 11:46
I totally agree with you. And then I think, I think it’s very sort of the you have to sort of navigate, I think sometimes we’re in a bubble when we’re students. And then once you come out of that bubble, it’s like, it pops really quickly, really fast. And you kind of have to find your feet. Now, I think being honest, was sort of because I wish someone sort of said the same things to me when I was like, because, to be honest, I never really grew up with anyone in sort of immediate in my immediate sort of surroundings that was in architecture. And there were just so many things that I was like, why did no one tell me this, but I’m very glad in terms of, I’ve had sort of support from sort of my parents, close friends, friends who’ve sort of got into the workplace. I mean, I’ve got very, it’s funny that I think about this, like all my friends and sort of my small circle of sort of people who are in architecture as well, they’re all very extroverted, and I’m sort of the introverted, and so having that sort of complete opposite of me kind of grounds me a little bit. But also, I get those sort of brutally honest feedback. And I feel like that kind of feeds into the work that I do end up producing. So when I want sort of someone to be very honest with me, I kind of appreciate it a bit better, because I know sort of is coming from a place of I know, maybe I don’t know where you are currently. But I know that sort of where you are now is not sort of the space you’re going to stay in, like if you’re going to continue to seek Fie feedback, and seek a way to kind of move and progress. The only way is for you to kind of flip sort of the the coin I guess, and try to be all the other things. I think what was really, when I think about it now is that these last four or five months, I’ve been the most in terms of like networking, the most I’ve ever had, and I haven’t even lived my house. Which when I when I think about it’s like, you wouldn’t have found me outside at 6pm talk, like it would be very, because of all sorts of like commuting and all those sort of the little logistics kind of would stop me but I guess being in front of my computer screen anyway, kind of pushed me to be like, what have I got to lose nothing. So I might as well get involved and sort of just try to help out wherever I can. And because I think I appreciate feedback. So where I can sort of give that honest insight as a student, then I might as well I might not be the expert as of yet. But I’m experimenting with all of this and figuring it out as I go along. So yeah, I guess that’s where sort of I find my feet currently.

Stephen Drew 14:19
Yeah. I love it. It’s um, it’s definitely interesting. I love the point you raised there about in some ways, the upside of Coronavirus is it really has changed things. So So comparatively, you’re talking about that you because you’ve been working as a student in architecture, then you will be doing a lot of stuff. I remember as well you’re you’re on your computers, you’re rendering you’re doing all this stuff. And yeah, you can pop into university, but this is a true point you’re on. You’re on the computers a lot. And so what I did in my job in recruitment is that I speak in the people trying to meet people in person and go into events, and so Coronavirus has really changed it and flipped Sit on this head. So ironically, I’ve gone to more events online. Whereas, but there’s a whole new audience there. And I just think what would be really interesting is like the lessons that you’re talking about now. And I think they’ll there’ll be some really good friendships that come off this. And so where I find it really interesting, is that the connections that you make online, how do they change the physical fabric, so whether that’s people that you meet, now you sell up architectural practice through the future, or your friends and you meet physically, I think it’s that’s definitely interesting, funnily enough on the anti social, so I messaged me that they weren’t play tennis with someone else on there, which I thought was really cool, because that was not the intention when making the architecture social, but as probably the coolest thing of hear from it is like, yeah, I went and played tennis with someone. And, and that’s why I quite like is the connections that so for instance, use your Instagram are the architectural experiment that organically made this conversation. And that’s what we’re that’s what I think is the point that I’d like you to take away or anyone listening from this is that the point is, you’ve gone out, you could have sat at home, and quite easily and loaded up Come dine with me on Netflix, I have watched one or two of them this weekend just passed by a this weekend. It was my birthday. So we’re gonna be right. At 2121 Yeah, it’s try that. Well, you know, I still feel sometimes a bit like a spring chicken. But time goes on. Right? So what I mean is that I’ve been there where I’ve sat down, and sometimes you need a bit of downtime, sometimes you need a bit of time with loved ones. And I enjoy content creation, in a certain sense. And I think that is an architect, we all enjoy creating stuff, right. And what you what I like about what you’ve done is that there’s loads of different expressions of creating. So I studied architecture. Now I do recruitment. I mean, it’s been fun to build the architecture, social, but I’m also part of people’s careers. There’s something nice about that. And what I’m trying to say is that there’s something massively valuable about the content you provide the audience it creates, and participatory aspects. And I think that the people that are doing stuff and getting involved in creating stuff, like experiments, like you’re doing something success, some things work, something’s done. That’s kind of the point, right? You got to be out there. And it’d be interesting, what happens next? What do you find? work where you can quite take it is? So currently you have a website and Instagram? Is that how it digitally, the architectural experiment exists at the moment?

Nylda Hamchaoui 17:56
So initially, I kind of just started with, because writing was sort of the thing that was most comfortable with. So I kind of started with that. Also do a bit of photography on the side. Okay. So I kind of just use those two mediums that I’m sort of most comfortable with, on a website. And then from there, I think I was it was, I was actually talking to Sandra, because she was looking at the time she was looking for the for writers to help out with the the magazine. Oh, yeah, yeah, it was from there. And I sort of started to see how effective the engagement was on using platforms like Instagram. And seeing sort of the the graphical element of overall, the visual elements of pictures. Were in a way that sort of drawn, I think, really, I was really sort of interested in putting, you know, new, testing new skills out with graphics, because it wasn’t something I was too familiar with. And I had a lot of fun with it. And so I think I’m going to try to sort of continue using Instagram to not only sort of practice my skill, but I guess just keep the conversation going on social media, because I think that’s where everyone’s at, at the moment. And it’s, I mean, I’m a visual person. So I mean, I thoroughly enjoy when someone has a really nice drawing. I mean, really nice drawing in the sense where it’s not. There’s not like a particular sort of particular frame or like, I felt like because you can be bombarded with sort of people showing really fancy drawings where of their projects, but I feel like that’s not it can be the place for that. I don’t think it gives credit to some of the drawings. I’ve seen some people do drawings, like axonometric drawings that are like exploded, and these are and I felt like it’s not the place for that because I think you’re undermining how much information is actually loaded in these in these visual elements. So I think but seeing sort of snippets of words, or almost photo, photos, photogenic I think it would almost photogenic graphics, kind of create sort of like a conversation starter. But I guess it also, in one way or another, I think it just makes things a lot more so easier for people to understand what kind of pages for. But for me personally, I don’t feel like the conversation that I want to be, you know, talking about is, how beautiful an image looks or how beautiful someone’s design what can be, because I think we have enough of that on in sort of in on Instagram anyway. So I mean, using, I feel like I’ve started to use it just as a way to, again, to kind of create engagement on these discussions that I do end up having on on the blog, because I’m playing around with graphics at the same time I’m upscaling myself and sort of putting into practice what I’m sort of putting into practice what I talk about, in a way that kind of really is a bit more raw. And like, when I look at the graphics I initially started with, and then I look at sort of the most recent is like, it’s a very big difference. And you kind of see that jump. And I think, just constantly, I’m constantly learning to use different things to kind of improve sort of the visual element of it, but I don’t want to get too carried away in that. Because I think you can get carried away in that that sort of visual, because architecture is visual. So I mean, yeah.

Stephen Drew 21:22
Well, especially well, but the point is, is context, isn’t it? And that’s what you’re on about. And if you’re on to an interesting point, because as why I think the architectural experiment. And Instagram, yeah, that is the battle that I think you’re just gonna have is almost going to be a bit slower at the start isn’t that because I think Instagram is designed, you know, by the, the algorithms for sexy images, because it’s so cool. People pay attention to that. And suddenly, then the algorithm gravitates towards that image, it gets boosted because other people so where you are in about is, and I still think it works. The point is, is people who are interested in that content, it’s going to, they’re going to actively seek with it, they get the engagement is going to be longer. That’s the beauty of what you’re talking about is because when you find people with the same kind of passion as what you’re interested in, then like there’s much more substance in the conversation that’s longer. The thing is, is a thing is that people kind of want a bit of a bit of credit you want to click through and one of my tutors almost used to call it used to call it architecture porn. It’s kind of like, yeah, cuz it’s I Oh, you know, almost like coffee. You mentioned the coffee table. It’s like, Yeah, it looks nice, you know, when you’re in the dentist, and these kind of flick through in your own? Yeah, I like that. And then you’re done with it. I think that’s, I think that kind of is the hard thing of Instagram. There’s so many. There’s so many spaces for this so many different interesting movements. So you’re kind of talking about the thesis talking about projects, you’re talking about opinion pieces. And and in essence journalism are kind of I like that. It’s there’s so much different stuff. There’s so much out there. And so you’ve currently got the architectural experiment. Do you think now that when you get a job, and now we’re talking about this is, in essence, an experiment, and you’re happy to see where it goes? Or do you have an end goal at all? Oh,

Nylda Hamchaoui 23:29
I never thought of God. Yeah. No, I definitely think it’s something I’m going to continue because I feel like my journey into architecture has just started it hasn’t. Sort of, yeah, it’s just started. So I’m not, this isn’t this is almost just like the beginning. It’s just I mean, I because I really just want to connect with architecture in a way that kind of is just real and raw. Because I mean, it’s very easy to kind of compare yourself to kind of some of the, the the almost perfect, perfect image of sort of what architects can create, and students can create, and we can get carried away and sort of this perfect image that we don’t end up seeing the people who are kind of, you know, building brick by brick, they’re kind of their work in a way, because no one kind of starts with perfect drawings with perfect content. But I think just having that space to kind of see the conversation, kind of take its own sort of its own route in a way that kind of, like I remember when I’m sort of thinking about this, I remember there was one person to want to Instagram he reached out and it was I did a piece on failure. And because for me that was like I think it was at the end of sort of second year second year for me was like the most challenging transition during sort of the three years and a person so I wrote an article based on sort of that stigma around failure and how like it Shouldn’t be as much of a stigma, I think it’s a mental, it’s a mental thing. And someone reached out to me and was like, I really sort of appreciate that you’ve talked about this, because I just went through something very similar. And so you’ve seen that kind of connection with, that’s what keeps me going, even if it’s just like one, as long as I’m helping out one person. Because we’re all sort of on these journeys. So I want to be able to document this journey, because I generally enjoy it when I see someone start off in the beginning of their career, and then sort of continues and, you know, we don’t know sort of what kind of success they’ll get to where the next step is, by just being able to document and to see, and to kind of be part of the journey, I guess, is what I want. I want people to be able to sort of see, but also, I mean, because I have a goal in mind that I do want to become an architect in the near future. But that journey isn’t going to be as sort of streetcar as I imagined it to be, or that that’s why I don’t for most of the articles I write, I don’t end up going back to any of the first ones because I feel like that was sort of in the moment, where sort of I was mentally, sort of in the architectural sort of skills that I did have them and the insights that had then and I think just having having a space where people can see that it wasn’t all perfect to begin with, it wasn’t all pretty to begin with. So I’m definitely it’s something definitely that I’m going to continue. In fact, it’s going to feel like a bit more valid, just me and my head, it might not be sort of like a external thing, but just me and my it’s gonna be valid, that it was worth sharing these because someone out there is gonna is going to understand, or at least resonate with some of the struggles or the things that they wish they had known back then that, you know, they, they can now sort of see that it was worth sort of the struggle to begin with because no, no journey. I feel like it’s a straight sort of linear progression. It’s always sort of like there’s but there’s peaks and troughs. So yeah,

Stephen Drew 26:59
I think they know it’s really interesting. You talk about that, because I used to do it. Sometimes we look back at some work and I’d be like, cash is this one’s bad. This one. This one’s not the bestest one. And sometimes I look back now and I’ve got a bit more. I feel some of the stuff and I look back. I’m happy with it. And so there was an interesting thing I read from so there’s a there’s a musician called Trent Reznor, he found, he found a band called Naomi’s nails, there’s big industrial band binders, though, he made this really good quote, and he says, like, Look, I looked back on some of the records. And I kind of feel like I passed them, I changed them. But I’m okay with them. Because at the time frame, they were very honest to who I was and where I was at. And, and in that sense, they quite sincere. And I think it’s the same thing which you can apply to your work, or that’s what I’m happy with. As I look back and I go, you know what, that’s what I believed in at the time, I work really hard and that it came from the heart. So I’m happy with it, as it may be the renderings a bit dated now, but the message was there, or it was true to who I was at that time. Of course, and and to go back to your point about with failure as well, I failed loads of times. I mean, I’ve had a business, which is completely gone. Now he was really successful, turned over a lot of money at the time, and then it all went away. And it was really emotional stressful, for a lot of various reasons. And in some senses nearly killed me. But I learned so much of that from now. And so even with all the pain, all the mistakes, I still wouldn’t change things. And actually, that’s a year and a bunch of failures led to this opportunity. And then there’s even stuff that I do on a day to day when I get things wrong. You know, I get things wrong all the time. And I think that actually making mistakes, or maybe the phrase it for this is actually making mistakes is one thing, but it’s about being out there and contributed and stuff, which isn’t perfect, but I think, yeah, what I like about the Arctic experiment, and the kind of the vibe of the social and the few other things as well is that participate in is what’s important. And I think if it comes from an honest, humble place where you you don’t need to know all the answers. But if you’re there and you’re respectful, then the reality is you will gain them audience and people will be interested. And I’m sure there’s a lot of people that feel the same. So of course. So I kind of feel like it’s an uplift in tone to this. I want people to check out the architectural experiments. So know that if they don’t if this is the first time they’ve ever heard of yourself and what you’re up to, where is the best place to fly, reach out to maybe engage with you read the architectural experiment and as well say hello to you. Where’s the Best Places to find you.

Nylda Hamchaoui 30:01
So I’m usually on Instagram with sort of the same handle the architectural experiment. But also on the website sort of WW. The architecture That’s where usually all the content sort of there, but I’m easily reachable sort of through Instagram, because as we all know, we’re on there for far too long, but we need to be but but I’m always there. And yeah, feel free to check out any of the stuff. Any feedback, any sort of discussions in engagement, on anything that you find interesting would be so greatly appreciated and greatly encouraged.

Stephen Drew 30:39
Yeah. Awesome. Awesome. Brilliant. It’s really good to have you on the architectural social as well. We will keep an eye Oh, yeah. Next time you post right. You got to post on there. Because I keep missing them. You’re obviously in the main area we don’t need we don’t need to sit in the main area. Try not to be as precious. You bet I promise.

Nylda Hamchaoui 31:12
I will. I definitely will. I think I think that’s just like it’s just me being a bit precious about everything that I need to come

Stephen Drew 31:17
to. I’m just teasing you on the spot now. Because

Nylda Hamchaoui 31:21
even even for like the CV stuff, it was like the amount of like rush that I was sort of getting was like, Oh my god, what have I done the right file. But yeah, it’s always I just kind of have to put it out there and kind of just deal with it as is. And not kind of be fixated on sort of the the improvement piece rather just kind of use that as a beginning point.

Stephen Drew 31:43
That will come with time. I think, the more the more you do architecture, the more you practice, the more you write, the more you’re a guitar, you play guitar, everything. It’s like that muscle memory concept over time, you get better. And I think in architecture, you develop tastes. And that comes over time. And that comes from doing stuff that you bang out, which is good. And some stuff that’s not I mean, I tell you what the graphic I did for the last ones, I’m gonna think I’m gonna tweak it because every time I look at it at the moment, so I’m on a boat, like the thumbnail, okay. I don’t like it. And I banged it out in three minutes, because I was in a rush. And I think I’m gonna change it. At the same time, though. I just think you know what, maybe the next one will be should be better. Or maybe it’s okay. It’s not perfect. And maybe that’s the point. And on that note, I love the architectural experiment, keep experimenting, keep writing letters to pastels and see how that goes as well. I can’t wait to see more and more of what you do. I hope everyone checks out the architectural and checks you out on the Instagram. It was a great grades. But a great journal. What a great insight. What a great experiment. Thank you very much. Thanks. All right. All right. Thank you so much. Speak to you soon. Bye bye.


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