Careers across Construction and Architectural Technology, ft. Joe Healey

Careers across Construction and Architectural Technology, ft. Joe Healey

Joseph is a Senior Architectural Technologist and author of the book “Building a career in architecture”. 

We met several years ago when I was entering the industry as a Part I Architectural Assistant, shortly before Joe travelled the world working at Global Architecture Practices such as Cox Architects and Gensler before taking a role at NBS Specification as a Technical Specifications expert. 

Join our conversation talking about careers across the Construction Industry and gain more insight into what it takes to be an Architectural Technologist as well as top tips on how to relocate and get a new job halfway across the world within the sector. 

Find out more about Joe’s awesome book here:


tephen Drew: Hello everyone. I am Stephen Drew. And if you are in this heat wave, we will get through it together probably by the time this comes out, there won’t even be a heat wave anymore. So I may as well stop talking about it more importantly than the heat wave and the S sweltering conditions I’m in. I’ve got a fantastic guest.

All the way around from the world, which I’ve worked from before, who is ANP author, who’s written the book about supporting and building careers in Architecture. So I need to take some notes because that’s part of the mantra of the Architecture, Social and learn a little bit myself, but I’ve got this fantastic Joe or Joe, as I know him, Joe Healy.

Joe. How are you very

Joe Healey: much, Stephen? Thankfully introduction. Yeah. Pretty good. Thank you. Speaking to you from Chile, Melbourne in Australia. It’s meet middle of the winter and there’s no heat wave here for sure.

Stephen Drew: Amazing. Thank you, Joe. You are very patient as well. For context. This is the second time we’re recording the podcast.

Because my first one corrupted. And you have the, you are the most patient person to come back and do it again. I’m so pleased you are. And that passion transcend. Into what you’ve done in writing a book. Now I’m not very good at writing as well. So perhaps you could tell me a little bit about how you’ve done that book just before you do.

We should let people know that how me and each other. So maybe Joe, like you can do me the honors making my life easier, host and tell everyone how you have the misfortune of fortune. I don’t know, up to you of how we know each other. And then we can build from.

Joe Healey: I can only remember the year, but it’s looking at say 2000 and seven ish.

Yeah. Where I was working in EPR Architect. Yeah. Westminster London town. And I think you, you came through the door maybe 2008 or nine as a grad. Yeah. And I think I could hear you before. I . I know. And. Blossoming friendship went from there. It was good times in the office. And yeah, I remember you struck up a good friendship as you did with everybody.

Stephen Drew: Oh, you go we, I was on one team, and you were on the other, but our tables were next to each other. So I used to try and get in on the bands with you guys, the kind of the cool kids, but I also liked my team as well. And I, and it was interesting. Cuz in my head you were one of the technical guys.

And I think probably worth noting for everyone here is that, what was amazing about offices like EPR is that, there’s a lot of cross collaboration. You are a qualified, chartered, Architectural technologist, isn’t it? So you have correct yours. M C I a T. So for anyone that does not familiar with the distinction between a, becoming a registered Architect and a chartered Architectural technologist, can you maybe elaborate a bit on that joke?

Cause I think it’s really useful for people to know.

Joe Healey: Yeah. I guess it’s certainly, as you say the technical side of the industry originally it was like a branch off from Reba back in the sixties, it was under a different acronym. But it was an Institute for the technicians basical. so through the eighties and nineties, it was always described as like the technicians were a bit of a separate breed and that sort of changed its terminology over the years.

And now it’s technologists, basically just means yeah, you down the more construction side, the building technology side, instead of the pure Architecture. Which I first studied at university, but then changing a few modules here and there came out with Architectural technology instead. So it just leans you down that route.

That’s really

Stephen Drew: interesting, actually. And so you yeah, cuz you, you did Architecture, which is great. And then you found what you were interested in. Fortunately for your interest that you then have to suffer technical questions from a part one like me going, Hey, Joe, how does this work?

But that’s what you enjoyed. I remember you were really good at that and you were very selfless with your time, but you. So it is the technical aspects that you love then Joe, is that fair comment then? Do you think?

Joe Healey: Yeah, definitely. Yeah. I don’t remember you bugging me at all, but I guess everyone in the industry enjoys certain things.

And doesn’t enjoy other things. There’s always a variety, but yeah, I was in with the detailing pretty quickly trying to draw the little, pretty pictures of detailing and searching the websites for all the details you could download there. And soon, perhaps you.

You’re getting some success at some things. Yeah. And you’re getting a few failures at other things. So the failures push you further away and the successes drag you along. Yeah, stuck on the technical side. And that’s, carried me through a few years now with various jobs, being a technical knowhow or trying to anyway.

Stephen Drew: Amazing. And look, there’s so many things we can unpack just before we do that, though. There’s an art front. The reason why you didn’t know me doing all the asking all the questions, cause I definitely did what you’ve gotta do. And for anyone. Just joining an Architectural practice, especially if you’re a graduate cause that’s how, what we’re talking about here as well.

Isn’t it, Joe? I think top tip number one, which is an indirect tip is probably get to know the people that you’re working with. And if anyone’s got a wealth of knowledge, build a rapport with them, get to know them on a personal level. Cuz then when you wanna ask a few questions, it’s the, person’s more likely to help you, right?

I think that’s a. That’s a good sentiment, but I always used to remember that I used to get teased by the trap in it, which was also at the desk and forgotten his name now, but he always used to tease me about my music sense and we always to have a giggle about it. It’s gone. I forget. I forget the name.

Anyways, I, there,

Joe Healey: there was a few, but yeah let’s not pick

Stephen Drew: and yeah. Yeah. I don’t wanna have a copyright strike or anything for names from you might be listening. You might be listening. I did enjoy his company then anyways. I think it’s good to make. That’s one of the most important tips I always say to people getting an industry is especially, and I think one thing EPR did really well is.

It’s good to have part one starting at the same time, cuz you’re in it together. But at the same time, you don’t just stick to your part once because everyone’s super friendly, especially in Architecture. And I do think as well what I’ve learned is wealth of knowledge like yourself is an Architectural technology.

Technologist in the office can be really useful, but moving on from that, Joe, because this story of, us having banter in the. It’s it came to a crescendo. It ended. Partly cuz I went to do my part two, but for dramatic sake, I’ll turn the table on you and say it’s because you left me Joe, you left me mate.

And you went to another country. So I’m joking. I think it’s, it is awesome that you did that, but that would be really cool for you to expand upon as well. I wouldn’t, I’ve gone to somewhere. I’ve never thought about going to Dubai, but I know a lot of people that have done it and who love it and are constantly inviting me out there.

But where did that all come about me? Were you thinking about the change or was there a job offer out there or tell me all about.

Joe Healey: Yeah. As you’re saying, when you have connections that mention it. Yeah. I certainly think you can you could and should jump on those pretty quickly. Cause it’s often that they’ll just put in a good word for you and the companies around them say, oh, we need some people with these skills or these skills.

Yeah. And just tag along with that. Yeah. So the connections and who, is crucial, but in, in my story, yeah, it was. Probably seven or eight years at EPR, which was great. I learned a lot there. Yeah, certainly as we’ve said with the detailing side of things and that kind of role in projects was very useful.

But it just also showed me that you could get a little bit trapped in certain typologies. I suppose EPR was very strong at offices and hotels at the time. And then they still are, but you could get a bit pigeon holding that. And I thought, wanna break out in terms of a different place.

Yeah. Yeah. As great as London. just thought I’d had my years there. So let’s move on, take a different challenge and had a couple of people who had moved out to the UAE, working in Abu Dhabi and Dubai. And again, they were just saying, yeah, there’s some options out there. So as a case of just actually finding the HR person on LinkedIn.

Oh wow.

Stephen Drew: And was that simple? Was it,

Joe Healey: they stalking them really just saying, Hey I’m interested in work out there. Is it a good timing? And sometimes they might say, no, it’s not good timing. Sorry. We’ve got nothing on. Yeah. But in this particular case, they said, yeah, we are hiring. We need technical knowledge.

And. My technical knowledge, wasn’t gonna instantly transfer to the middle east, but it’s something. And luckily there, they generally follow American standards and UK standards and therefore you got a decent foot in the door. So that was the reason. Yeah. Just take a jump, do something different. If it goes wrong, you can always come back home six months later and get back to what you were doing.


Stephen Drew: And I think. A great way to, I agree with you because I think that sometimes on one hand, it’s really good to be in an Architecture practice for a long period of time, which was you loyal dedicate. That’s good, but you’re right. Sometimes I think some Architecture practices there’s a way of doing Architecture, isn’t it?

And I think if you go to Architecture practices, you, some of those preconceptions, which you’ve made of, that’s the way to do. Get challenged. So I can imagine, you’ve seen the EPR za, you’ve been in Cox Architecture as well, which is quite cool. So it’s quite interesting to see all those styles, but just before we crack on with that chart, what I’d love to know.

I always, when people say relocating stuff, I always like to go through it. Was it really that simple where you just packed everything up after you spoke to HR, you went for one or two interviews, but what was the actual process of moving from the UK to, to buy? Was it easy or. A lot of red tape, a lot of work,

Joe Healey: just travel light.

First of all, I didn’t really take much. But it was first yeah. Organizing this contact through LinkedIn basically, and then getting an invite to maybe visit out there. First of all. Yeah. And I had the option to visit out there. So I thought, yeah, I’ll book a flight. Get out there.

Have the interview actually had. Two other interviews as well, just as a bit of a backup. But yeah, there’s a fair bit of red tape to go through with the middle east just visas passport things, but then translation of course, into Arabic as well. Fair bit of that sort of thing. And these things can take a bit of time, depending on what time of year it is.

It might be over Ramada, different things like that, but just in different countries might be fast or slow just the way it is. So within a. Again, getting back home and eventually getting the job offer, which again, always takes a little bit longer than you would think. And upon accepting it, it was just thinking I don’t need to take everything in my life, but I’ll take what is ex what is essentially gonna be potentially an extended holiday.

Pack for a few months worth, and then you can always buy whatever else you need out there. So yeah, after the red tape gets done, you’re just packing for a holiday, maybe . Yeah.

Stephen Drew: Nice. And you go from there. Yeah. Brilliant. Very interesting. Cuz you were, so you worked in Dubai for four years.

So what is it like different culturally, you suppose you don’t have any loud Welsh part ones there and the banter from the it crowd and stuff. So what, how, what is. Because I imagine if I’m sitting down in the, is it quite similar to the UK? Cause I hear that you’ve got British expats and stuff like that, communities out there, or is it a totally different climate once you are out there, Joe, is it.

Is it miles apart.

Joe Healey: It’s weird. There’s some very similar, some very different, so what I learned pretty quickly when I was out there that it’s a country of about nearly 5 million people at the time. And there was over 150,000 Brits there already. Just living the life out there. Often a lot of them making a lot of money in finance or property and things.

Yeah. And a fair few in Architecture as well, but you’ll be surprised, maybe not surprised, maybe delighted to know there’s a fair bit of, shout there people a lot. Manchester and Liverpool and affair for you from Middlesborough on recollection. So you meet all sorts of people from anywhere. But that’s part of the melting pot of UAE.

So some things were very similar and the office atmosphere was generally quite similar, a little bit quieter, of course. Yeah. But yeah, you meet more people from all around the world. Nearly every country in the world is represented there. Obviously the heat is quite extreme in the summer.

The sort of holiday options are all quite D. But working culture fairly similar. Cause I was working for an American company and therefore, the culture is not too different from the UK. There’s a fair blend of everything. Yeah.

Stephen Drew: Fair play. I I would love to do it at some point. I think it is quite, I’m sure it’s quite rewarding.

So after four years so you, you saw your fair share at Dubai, but you’ve kind. Done another loop around the world now, isn’t it. You definitely got your kicks. Very smart just before the pandemic. Perfect timing actually. And another opportunity presented itself in Australia. Which is very interesting as well.

And you have a large Architectural community there and I’m aware of cause a lot of as well, a lot of Architectural practices in the UK, Joe, they have satellite offices or not even satellite offices. They have prop bar Architectural. In Australia as well. So how did that all come about? Was it similar thing where you spoke to the HR or did you have a ma out there who was like, come on, Joe, we need your, your skills in Australia.

Joe Healey: Australia’s pretty developing kind of economy in terms of size and population cuz Sydney and Melbourne massively expanded. Yeah. But this time now it was even luckier. Basically I had got married by. And my wife had an offer of a work transfer out here.

Stephen Drew: Congratulations. Did you meet in Dubai?

You both. Oh,

We originally met at university. Wow. That’s like going way back.

Joe Healey: She, yeah she studied Architecture as well. So I guess I had my eye on her a little bit there. Ah, but it was quite a few years later we actually got. And then yeah, by that time she had moved to UAE as well.

Yeah. Then after leaving UAE, we did a few months of travel and then she was still in, technically on secondment with her company. And then was able to come back and got an offer. For Melbourne to work on the railway, the sustainability. Oh, wow. Angle on the railway developments here. So she brought us out here and I was able just to realize there’s lots of options for Architecture jobs and yeah.

Hence Cox Architecture was a great option. So I joined them pretty quick. They’re pretty big on sports stadiums. Very cool. And big sort of residential towers, things like that. Yeah. Yeah. It was a good start, but yeah, just again, take the opportunity when it comes along, we said to each other, this might not work.

It might be too far away from. We might come back within six months, but now it’s nearly three years later. So you never quite know what’s around the corner. Take the jump and see what happens. You can always go back. Good

Stephen Drew: for you. When I say it’s when you were thinking about earlier about you were talking about the cultures and get involved, what drives and somewhat non Architectural related, but makes sense.

And I think you’ll get what I mean. I always find it mad. When you see all these holidays or bricks on tour and then where they go to a different country. Then the first thing they do as a Bri is go into a British pub. It’s like what you doing? Explore the culture. Explore the culture.

So I agree with you. I think you gotta jump deep into these cultures, but you’ve been welcomed in both in Dubai and Australia. If you just go along and I’m sure work hard and get involved, then it sounds good. But I gotta be honest as a loud Welsh person. I imagine the Australians.

Would be a bit more receptive to my sense of humor, whereas I’m worried in Dubai, everyone would hear me down the road. Right? Could do

Joe Healey: you, it’s friendliness that counts with you, Steve. It’s the fact that you’ve got a smiling approachable kind of manner and that’s good anywhere. So it was lucky that particularly Australia, it’s a kind of a British style culture, I suppose you could say, but even in UA, With the amount of Brits I mentioned, you do find Brits everywhere.

Yeah. So that’s a lucky for us that you generally can travel anywhere in the world and you’ll find Brits, but yeah, you’ll find Architecture, as you mentioned at the start, everyone’s pretty, pretty decent, usually pretty decent people in the industry. And there’s a lot of people willing to help you out.

And a lot of people you can latch onto as well, as you said earlier, to help you through your

Stephen Drew: career. Very cool. Very good to know that the world is receptive to loud Welsh. People like, like myself. I dunno where the sense of humans come from. I think it’s the heat I’m boiling you. I’m not equipped for it, Joe.

Sounds really interesting. So on this note, Joe, as well, because I wanna talk about your booking a bit, but I’m just going along the path. And I guess I’ve always been interested in traveling as well, because I’d done a bit of that. Especially before the pandemic and my thoughts.

Traveling is enriching for the soul and everything. Like you said, you’ve got these. I dunno whether it’s like, when I remember when I was growing up in Wales and I got a job in London. And the first thing I did is say, oh, alright boys. I’m, I’m gonna study in, in, in London.

And this is before I joined EPR and they were like, oh, I’m like what? And they’re like, they don’t like us over there. What you doing? Staying Wales. And that’s like the lower, the rubbish, Joe, it was like the biggest load of rubbish in London. I had the greatest time everyone was super accepting.

So I always, I agree with you, especially like traveling. It’s not, I’m talking about my like little event, like a hobby here, actually going from Wales to, London’s not a big, a bigger journey, but in essence, everyone’s welcoming, if in doubt, take the jump, but you took another jump, Joe, as well, because we talked about all your Architectural skills in terms of technology, what you’ve done, helping out on specification, writing, wink, wink, nudge, nudge.

Now you work for MBS Australia and for anyone that’s not familiar with it, MBS is part of specification writing. Isn’t it? In your words, cuz I’m a bit I’m I am used MBS spec for a while and I think when I did try and use it years ago, I think you would’ve looked at what I’d done and gone. Do you know what Steve, just let me go on.

It’s fine. I’ll sort it out for you that wasn’t the best of that stuff. But tell us all about the M what MBS is and what your role is at MBS.

Joe Healey: Yeah, the company’s pretty, pretty big in the UK. So like you said in the specification area, Specifications were boring. I think when we were in, in the office, they’ve transitioned now.

Yeah. They’re a lot more exciting. They’re a lot more involved now, a bit more connected with the technology there’s model integration kicking out schedules from the specification as well. So it’s, it is really taken a bit of a change. And there, the main office is up in Newcastle in, in UK.

Yeah. Lovely big office up there in a converted old post office that just visited once. . Yeah, it’s a really pretty good company. And they just set up in Canada and Australia about five years ago. So just developing the platforms out here, which is MBS chorus, being the the specification writing platform and that links into something called MBS source, which is where you can grab loads of manufacturer products and put straight into your spec.

And therefore those products transfer through to the rest of your schedules and drawings. So it’s taken an exciting. Term twist there you

Stephen Drew: oh and I think that’s really interesting, isn’t it? Because I think if you follow your passions of what comes what you find stimulate, and then as far as I’m concerned, does you don’t need to go on the traditional trajectory.

If you do want to go on the traditional trajectory then amazing, but at the same time, there’s so much you can do with an Architectural degree. In any shape or form. I don’t a lot of options. Yeah. Yeah. I speak to people on this subject about people who have gone into journalism. I’ve gone into recruitment.

That wouldn’t be the top of the list. I would recommend maybe I’d look at working for MBS first or, journalism, or I know people who run their own business, actually a programmer. I know who does a lot of scripts for boots and companies like Lloyd’s. He studied Architecture and they like him as a Scriptor because of the way he envisions things.

Joe, maybe it’s that spacial perception that we’re trained in Architecture. I love that your journey has led you to where you are, but what’s even more surprising in a good way. So I’m surprised as in I’m impressed and surprised that you managed to squeeze the time to do. While you are, you are cracking away at MBS and the companies you worked before is you’ve written a book now, Joe quick confession, before that, cuz writing was not my forte, especially if you got a short attention span, I struggle with it.

So this is a proper book that you’ve written because it has more than five pages. That’s me. So I’m looking there as 328 pages. It’s on. Amazon and I’ll put the link into the buyin. People can look at it and all that stuff. Thank you. But this is our proper book talking about Architecture careers, so do you want to tell us about the book and maybe why you felt like you wanted to write this book and what the journey was like in writing the book as well?

Joe Healey: Yeah. I would say wasn’t, it’s not that impressive cuz we were in lockdown, so it was something to do in some ways. Oh, it was a good lockdown

Stephen Drew: book.

Joe Healey: You put, it was a bit of a lockdown project. Yeah. I suppose I had a few, a bit of an idea about it over the years because I’d done a lot of mentoring through through CF actually. Okay. A fair bit of mentoring of younger staff and just to help ’em through what is when I was looking back at my early years.

Some things that you. Be a bit embarrassed that you didn’t know when you were three or four years into your career. Yeah. And you feel like you can’t ask cuz it’s such an obvious question. Yeah. Yeah. So a lot of that kind of thing and realize there’s just not. Base level introduction to say that the industry is too big to learn everything straight away.

, it’s too big to even learn in the first five years, but you can have a sort of broad understanding and that gets you through certain to a certain stage before you can then specialize. So all that mentoring, came in handy when thinking I could Penn this together. Like I say, we were in lockdown.

The whole world was, and certainly Melbourne had its fair share of lockdowns. Over the course of a few months, just started writing a few different chapters and then gradually cobbled it all together into three sections. Got a bit of advice and a bit of kind of proof reading from friends and people.

And yeah, just thought I’ll throw this together. And. Yeah. A bit of a personal lockdown project, really, as much as trying to get it out into the market. But it was nice to write about, cause then you could ask some freedom to, to invent whichever chapters you want and and yeah, write whatever I want to write.

Without naming too many names,

Stephen Drew: I love it. I think that’s amazing. I give you a clap for being a journalist noise. You’ve done a, you’re an author, not journalist. You’re an. Which is great. So you’ve got Stephen king and yourself, Joe, fair dues. I am. I’m impressed by that.

And obviously people need to read the book to go to have a deeper understanding. Now I’ve because I don’t have an attention to span like yourself. I do a lot of podcasts and videos. It’s great. Cause I get to speak to people. Like you, when I’ve done a few series before on like videos, I would start with the process of, I, I look at it more on designing the covering layer, designing a CV, a portfolio.

So I’ve been someone that I’ve known closely uses the phrase that I, the equivalent of a front end designer, I don’t talk about the technical details because that’s stuff that you do. But I mainly advise on CVS portfolio. Interviews techniques as well. And obviously people can read your book to kinda get the full detail of them, but maybe it would be cool if you can just give us a bit of an overview of maybe where you started with the book or how it’s broken down and maybe the arc of the journey over the book.

I’d be very curious to learn more about them.

Joe Healey: Sure. Yeah. It did transition over the whole sort of period. So I wasn’t quite sure what form it was gonna take, but I gradually thought let’s keep it into say three manageable sections so you can jump around a bit. So the first section is basically how the industry works, trying to explain the basics of how project is procured and how it’s all put together.

, who’s involved, what the stages are. Again, you can’t go into too much detail cause there can be an entire book. Just read about the tender process. Yeah. Or an. Book just about contracts, that sort of thing. So trying to give a good overview, the title of the book is building a career in Architecture, what to expect in your early years.

So it’s just trying to cover the basis for young professionals to say at least I know broadly what’s going on. So that, that first section was about the industry overall and how projects work. The second bit was where I took Took the sort of option to gather lots of opinions from colleagues and friends from around the world.

And over the years worked in Architecture. So I asked loads of friends to just write about 150 words. Of what advice you would give to young people about the Architecture industry? So there’s about 20 people in there who have written their little passage, which is nice just to hear their thoughts as well, not only mine, and then just shows the option to write a bit about some famous buildings, ones that I really like and have visited.

And some that I’ve Visited and not liked. And some that I just really admire anyway, just some creative writing about some lovely buildings, that kind of thing. There’s a few like famous Architectural quotes in there as well. A little passage about sort of famous architects and their quotes, just to try and put into the mind about.

What the real big thinkers say, and then the final part three is just effectively my career story. So just runs through a lot of memories of like fair few EPR memories about how the office worked, who was the, who were the nice people who were the slightly not so nice people not gonna name the names.

You’ve just gotta tackle that sort of thing in the office about office culture, how to behave how you navigate your. Through the projects and through the actual staff you’re working with. So it was just my story, as to funny memories that have come out of that and how I changed those jobs internationally.

And yeah, some of the projects I worked on just a bit of a chronological run through really is that about

Stephen Drew: wraps it up? Really? I love it. I think it’s no need to buy it. yeah, I think so. It’s 300 pages. That you, it goes into a lot. I think it’s the new answers and stuff, isn’t it?

And I think that, I think precious about our book and maybe why I think like at some point I would like to get around to it because I think, especially at the moment we’re in this fast culture, right? Talk Instagram 30 seconds, you kind can’t get under the skin in 30 seconds, you need, that’s where the book it’s got layers and experience and nuances.

I think that’s, what’s really important about it. And the other thing I quite like about a book actually is that cost to value’s quite, it’s quite cost effective. I imagine I’m looking at it now. This is like $30 Australian dollars. I will have a look where it’s on Amazon UK, but I think for the bulk of the content you’re getting, I think is pretty good.

And yeah, no, I do. And

Joe Healey: to work that out, cause I thought about. Yeah, 14 pounds or something like that. And I thought is this worth two or three pints of beer? I don’t know. I think so. Or like other books are generally between say 10 and 20 quids. So

Stephen Drew: I think so. And I gotta be careful cause I might have a ranter in the heat.

You have to reel me back in Joe I like that. I’m like the host unleash, but what I’ve learned is as well is big misconception out there because I think a lot of free resources they’re free for a reason. And it’s very hard to do anything substantially, in my opinion, that’s free. And I’ve learned that.

So a lot of the content I do with the Architecture, Social is free to all, but then there’s a few reasons for that. It’s because I like building up YouTube because it can go to a larger. Share of people there, but truthfully it’s, it is hard to go one on one or case by case scenario. So I try to put out content, which is the catch for all, but then the true fi show that Architecture it’s like you said it’s very, in terms of your book is driven by experiences.

And I think that it really helps to have a wealth of people from whoever different perspectives, where you can different things. And then you can soak up all their information, so rant with the heat over. But I do think that the proposition of what you’ve done and the low cost of entry makes a lot of sense.

What I was gonna say here now is cuz we have a bit of fun, so it’s like we’ve got to 30 minutes. And this is the second time you’ve recorded one. Cause I messed up the first one and maybe we can have a bit of fun with this. Do you have any questions for me? As well that you can ask and we can ping pong off each other at all.

Joe Healey: A lot of questions about your Architecture, Social, for sure. Cause something, I just had a bit of a listen to yeah. Over the last few months, which has been good. But yeah, I think it’s crucial to hear everyone’s story about Architecture if that’s the sort of subject, because everyone has a slightly different story.

You can always pick up little things from different people about how they’ve done it. It is becoming a very wide industry, I reckon a little wander around your career

Stephen Drew: path, wander around my career. Have you covered

Joe Healey: that on have you done that on previous

Stephen Drew: pods potentially? But we’ll do it anyways.

I just, I was the opposite of view. I was like I just know it, I know drive personally in. Conquering technical. It wasn’t my thing, which is bizarre as in, so the way that you get excited about solving the complex problem and the stuff you get overcame at the EPR and have done, you’ve got that passion, right?

Where you just do it automatically. And when you’ve overcome that problem you feel satisfied and. You go into the next one, but I didn’t have that, but I quite like the Architecture. I like being in there and I’m a chatty guy, so I was like, what should I do?

So I’m not too sure I wanna do this. And then I’ll go into recruitment. And that’s you’re jumping out of like the frying pan into the fire, as in it was like okay. I’m not sure about some things there. And I rocked up in recruitment and then my first job in recruitment, they were, there’s no training.

They were like, Good. You hear? There’s a film go for it. And you’re like, oh my gosh. But it was baptism by fire. And sometimes in sales, it’s sink or. and until the jury’s out, you’re one of the new guys. And they’re just like, I don’t know. We’ll see which one of the new guys survive.

Just totally the opposite of having, being trained in micro station or red at EPR and all this stuff. It’s just it was a really good way of just seeing how the rule book is just completely torn up, but it was just like do or. So I did that. When do it, you, yeah. Yeah. It worked, but it was not the best way to do it.

It was, I nearly go home having an AISM Joe, just I’ve gotta ring these certain people and I’m not sure what I’m doing, but in the end it got then anyway, so I’ve done that for eight years. The problem is with recruitment is that it’s driven and people don’t like to talk about recruitment much.

Normally recruitment is you get one or two very specific job requirements, which a company’s struggling to get, and they’re prepared to pay a recruitment consultant to find that person. And so when you take a brief in recruitment, you’re really looking for that person. Now, what happens in that is that you meet a lot of awesome people that you can’t help at the time.

And so I would always meet a part one or part two. Maybe someone who applies for a job, which isn’t quite the right fit, Joe. And I would try to speak to them for a minute or two, but that’s not enough, like we were just talking about with your book, you’ve got 300 pages in there. People can look on their own well, but what was happening is I would speak to someone for one, two minutes.

I would try and impart as much nuggets as I could do, but my job and me so that I. Make sure I’m not getting sacked. I’ve gotta find a BIM Manager, or whatever or an associate. So the problem is you can’t really give that part one. And part two the resources they need at that time. And because you’re chasing that goal.

So that’s the flaw with recruitment, but that’s the truth for the business. So the Architectural social is like my version, of your book where I said I need to start building up this resources, which are free, where if part one comes my way, I can say, I’m gonna be really honest with you. I can’t really help you right now, but I’ve built up all this information that you can go through.

It’s totally free. And then after that, if you want a one on one. Then I do that at narrowly rate or, I could advise on recruitment one or two things, but have a look at this wealth of knowledge. And that’s you,


Joe Healey: Lot of links there. Yeah. Is crucial. Yeah. Yeah. Many aspects to cover as well.

Isn’t there because you want that first CV advice, but having a great CV doesn’t mean you get the job it’s then the next level of what you’re gonna do when you get to a company, how you’re gonna impact the company and. Do what they request, but then, a bit more, so they wanna keep you as well.

Correct. It’s a tough world to

Stephen Drew: get into correct. There’s many facets on it. So I tend to, I focus more on, on recruitment as in the CV, the portfolio, but you’re right. I can’t really pretend I’ve never done my part free. I don’t pretend I’ve done my part free, doing. I’ve met a lot of people have done part free, pulled their hair out and all this stuff and survive, but I’ve never done it myself.

And like you, you said quite correctly and I’m gonna reiterate that. It’s it can go either way. You can have all the skills in the world. And if you haven’t got a good CV in portfolio, or you don’t like you, did you messaged that HR contact, if you don’t have those soft skills to do that.

And if you don’t have a good CV portfolio, there’s a risk that you’re gonna get overlooked. So it’s crucial on that front, but then it goes the other way as well. It could be that you, you design an amazing CV portfolio, but you gotta have the goods to back it up. Isn’t it. So it’s really, careers is so many facets to it.

And that’s why I do like to do cloud timing as

Joe Healey: well. Yeah. It’s timing book can be really critical. Cause you might have, you might be aiming for a couple of companies. Like I have done over my career. So a few companies I really wanna work for. And when, if I’ve applied to them, the timing isn’t quite right.

And then if you come back a few years later, Sunday, the timing is right. Just cuz the project needs you. So of all the companies you apply for often 80%, the timing isn’t right. You’re the great candidate. But then after just wait a couple years. So yeah, it’s a long, hard journey ahead.

Stephen Drew: Isn’t it? That’s it.

And also it’s the human aspect of it. Like we were talking at the start about this, of having banter and I enjoy the EPR because I, it was a bit of work of course, cause work is work right. But there’s a bit of banter and I got along with people and stuff. Equally, I have some friends where they train offices.

They don’t like, and I get that, and we are all humans and sometimes it can click and sometimes it just doesn’t click. And it’s a really weird thing. And you can, you just have to, like you said, that there’s so many variables and sometimes it just goes wrong and it’s no one’s fault. It’s just not the right fit.

But I do think over time, as you go favor in your career, you start learning a little bit more about yourself, isn’t it. And I think. When you go to interviews, you start seeing the red flags, Joe, cuz the interviews a two way thing. You are also thinking about the company and if you want to work there and you start over time, I think detecting on, I don’t think that place is for me or I didn’t like, yeah, didn’t like that bit, but then also you might be like, we go there and you’re like, wow, that place is amazing.

I’ve seen the few good places, seen the few, not so good places. And they look really cool,

Joe Healey: damn. Yeah. Impossible to know straight away, but I reckon, yeah, the interview process. Always seems like the toughest bit, but what I’ve always thought is the interview is just checking what you like as a person.

Yeah. What you like as a human being, that the CV stuff and the portfolio has done its job. If you’re into the interview, you might need to talk about the project a bit you’ve done, and that’s where you really light up and really get into it and feel invigorated by. The interview process is just to see how you are as a person, be open and be, quite fun and and honest, but hardworking and that kind of thing.

It’s sounds the reason when you meet anybody in any other walk of life, you just wanna represent the person you are, and hopefully that’s a positive, fun, loud person. Who’s from

Stephen Drew: Wales. Oh, I dunno about that. The first half of it made complete sense. And then you went into madness thing.

Although there’s a lot of really good, shark Architect out there and you’ve done a lot. Good, better job than me card uni was amazing. What was I gonna say, Joe? Before my brain melts into a million different pieces, cause I’m not used to the heat, maybe I need to do a bit more globetrotting and then I build up my tolerance.

But as I joked about with you before I think part problem is in London, that is a heat wave. I can’t cope my whole my whole nervous system seems to break down, but just before I, my brain fully loses the plot. Is there any other questions or thoughts you have Joe, before we find, we tell people where to find you and how to get in touch?

Joe Healey: Yeah, certainly find me on LinkedIn would be probably the best place. Not an Instagram, unfortunately. Sorry about that. But yeah, LinkedIn is probably the place and otherwise can certainly look me up on an MBS as well. Happy to have a contact there, cuz I like doing some mentoring here on the side just to.

Here are the people’s side of the story. So yeah, hope to see what people think.

Stephen Drew: Brilliant. That makes sense. Don’t worry about Instagram. I, I’ve not the biggest fan of Instagram. there you go. So I’m with you, but mark Zuckerberg, if you are listening to this I am happy to talk about your Metaverse on, on the podcast, because even though I’ve said some tricky things about Facebook and.

I’m not I’m, I’m, I will happily have you on, but until then we got a long way to go. And Joe, you’ve been an absolute fantastic. Joe cili. We can get people to get in contact with you as well. I want to bring it down to the link in this comment in this podcast. If you watch this on YouTube, I’ll put the link there.

If you listen on Spotify, I’ll put the link there. We should check out Joe’s book, which is called building a career, an Architecture, what to expect in your early years. For the sacrifice of two pints, you might save yourself a few months worth of headaches. so check out Joe’s book.

Joe Healey: I’d like to hear what anyone thinks of it as well, because yeah, mine’s just one story and I’d like to hear people read it and challenge it and say that’s not quite true.

Or I don’t agree with this. It’s all Architecture is definitely worth throwing your hat into the ring. Isn’t it throwing your opinions in and you gotta form your own path in it. Yeah, correct to know.

Stephen Drew: Yeah. Correct. And it’s on Amazon and you can review it. And if you wanted to mention. That you also found this book through that loud Welch man’s podcast, then you can leave that in their in the review as well.

Thank you so much show you’ve been an absolute star. Stay on the stage and I will end the broadcast here now. Thank you so much. Cheers. Take care. Thanks dude.


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